Delaware hen tail-feathers black vs. barred, how to get?

[JoAnn_WI_4-H_Mom]

I have two Delaware Pullets, one appears to be getting the black tail-feathers specified in the APA, the other is getting barred like the roosters are supposed to have.

When the hen and the rooster are to have different tail feather configs, does that usually come naturally, like getting different colored hackles in the genders? Or do you have to keep separate lines, one to get black tail-feathered hens and the other to get barred tail-feathers roosters?

We sure like the few Delawares we have.

 

[seriousbill]

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Hi JoAnn,

You've hit upon one of the tough issues in Delaware breeding. Most breeders I've talked to suggest that in order to consistently get females with the proper tail color (black with no barring in the main tail feathers) you need to do a system of double mating, as you suggested. While not impossible, it's very hard to get males with good barring and females with good black out of the same breeding, especially since the female chicks inherit their barring from the male. So a well barred roo will often throw female offspring with too much barring, but those girls will, in turn, throw well barred males. So, the old timers used to keep a roo with a lot of tail black to breed good females and non-standard barred-tailed females to breed top quality males.

I don't have the space here to really do a double mating system. So, I muddle through as best I can with what I have. But, yeah, that's the best way to do it in this breed.

 

[Kev]

WHY???????? If that's true, roosters supposed to have barring in tails and the girls having "clean black" tails with no barirng.. that really does not make much sense. It would literally be the same as calling for BR roosters to have barring and solid black hens? Because this concept calls for roosters with barring and hens without barring.

Why are hens not allowed to show any barring?

This really blows my mind if true.

 

[seriousbill]

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Hi Kev,

Yes, the Delaware standard calls for males to have barring and hens to have black with only white lacing in the main tail feathers. Females are allowed to have some barring in the coverts only.

I can only assume that the reason for this requirement is because of the color gradient associated with columbian and barring, which makes it very, very difficult for most Delaware hens to manifest barring in the main tail feathers, so it would be unrealistic for the standard to call for it. And, no, since BRs are not columbian restricted, it is not the same situation at all.

The barred tailed females we're talking about usually only have a few feathers that are barred. It's rare to see an outright barred tailed Del female, but it does occur when the father has strong barring. Anyway, females with no barring are much more common.

 

[Kev]

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First, I was talking specifically about barring, as the standard seems to call for clean, black tails in the females.. which makes it sound like any evidence of barring would be penalized, which could potentially encourage a double mating using a line lacking or not pure for barring, itself. Also, I understand show stock BR do have Columbian as it helps with crisp barring, especially with addition of K(slow feathering). So the situation is quite similar, with the main difference being what base they are on(E for BR.. no idea what base Dels are on.. EWh? Do you know?)

This overall sounds to me a lot of heterozygous barred Del roosters are floating around. "Strong barred" rooster sounds like a homozygous barred rooster, especially combined with your earlier comment:

So a well barred roo will often throw female offspring with too much barring, but those girls will, in turn, throw well barred males.

This sounds like a homozygous rooster producing all daughters with barring(the gene), and these hens bred with any barred roo will of course throw at least half roosters with "well barred roosters"(assuming those are the homozygous ones). Barring also has a dose effect, there is a visible difference between a bird with a single copy or two copies.. so a rooster can have a lot of "tail black"(that could be heterozygous) or "strong barring"(homozygous). If people say the "good tail blacks" throw a lot of properly colored hens, that could easily fit the pattern of a heterozygous rooster throwing half daughters without barring(as in the gene) and so have the clean black tails called for in the standard.​

 

[seriousbill]

Quote:
First, I was talking specifically about barring, as the standard seems to call for clean, black tails.. which makes it sound like any evidence of barring would be penalized, which could potentially encourage a double mating using a line lacking or not pure for barring, itself. Also, I understand show stock BR do have Columbian as it apparently helps with crisp barring.

This overall sounds to me a lot of heterozygous barred Del roosters are floating around. "Strong barred" rooster sounds like a homozygous barred rooster, especially combined with your earlier comment:

So a well barred roo will often throw female offspring with too much barring, but those girls will, in turn, throw well barred males.

This sounds like a homozygous rooster producing all daughters with barring, and these hens bred with any barred roo will of course throw at least half roosters with "well barred roosters"(assuming those are the homozygous ones). Barring also has a dose effect, there is a visible difference between a bird with a single copy or two copies.. so a rooster can have a lot of "tail black"(that could be heterozygous) or "strong barring"(homozygous). If people say the "good tail blacks" throw a lot of properly colored hens, that could easily fit the pattern of a heterozygous rooster throwing half daughters without barring and so have the clean black tails called for in the standard.​

I said BRs weren't columbian *restricted* and they're not, because of extended black, as you know, so the effect is not the same. Delawares are, and this causes the barring to not show up as much in the tails of the females. This is not my opinion but simple fact. Look at any Delaware female that comes to hand and it's pretty obvious. Yes, barring does show a dose effect and that IS a factor in what we're talking about, because the females only have one barring gene, while the males have two. The dose effect often means that Del males have more barring in tails than Del females, but the gradient effect in this breed is also at work. It minimizes the barring and the color generally in the female Delaware's tail, which is probably THE biggest pitfall when trying to work with this breed.

Delawares are based on eb; IMO most show birds are eb. Some are based on ewh. eb produces better black coloring in this breed.

No, I'm not talking about heterozygosity and homozygosity. A well barred rooster is one that is homozygous for very clear cut barring, as one would see in a SQ BR. He will throw that barring to his daughters, and they will sometimes have some barring in the tail, to a greater or lesser degree. MOST Delaware females, however, do not have this. Instead, they have a greater or lesser degree of black in the tail, and barring in the hackle (gradient). That's the breed, and it has nothing to do with being heterozygous. The breed has been this way since it arrived on the scene in the 1940's, and as I said, the standard is written to take this into account. Otherwise, as you pointed out, the female standard would be written to include tail barring.

You asked me "why?" That's why.

 

[Faverolle]

I try to keep the tail near solid black with no barring and try to keep the barring on the neck/hackle light rather then the some of the more distinct barring like on the roos.

 

[seriousbill]

Your hen's hackle barring should not be lighter than the roo's. You want good color in hackle and tail.

 

[seriousbill]

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Also, just to add by way of further clarification, by a lot of tail black, I did not mean that the roo only carried one barring gene, but rather that the black bars predominated a bit more than usual. Mind you, the black bars are supposed to predominate. But sometimes, the black is a bit more than the standard ideal. These roos throw females with more color in the tail. Simple as that.

 

[Faverolle]

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hens should be a little lighter/less barring in the hackle. The picture of the hen you posted has about the same hackle pigment as the one I posted. This hen in particular, which was actually an older pullet at the time of the picture has ideal coloration and body confirmation. Many of the hens that I have seen on various websites have too much barring.