Delawares from kathyinmo

[LeslieDJoyce]

Here is a better photo of the seersucker hen. Again, she is one of the two F4 females I got in my initial trio.

 

[gjensen]

I'll for sure be weighing the ones I hatched here. For sure. And feeling them all over, too. A lot can go on under the feathers. And I need the practice evaluating birds. I try not to handle birds more than necessary, but evaluating this year's birds for next year's breeders is necessary.

Last year I started with just a trio. I had nothing to do but feed them and hatch their eggs, which was a great & easy way to ease into things. No choices. I could see pluses and minuses in each of the two pullets I got in the trio. The smaller pullet (now hen) has nicer feathers (color & quality), the larger one is more solid and matured faster. We handled the larger one a fair amount as she had an injury, so I know she was heavy during breeding season. The one that's molting harder now has always been the smaller bird.

So ... if the the two original females both continue to mature into "worse" birds than they were last year, then is breeding them back to one of their sons foolish? What are the pros and cons?

That begs the question what to do with this year's cockerels, presuming any of them turn out "better" than their father? It looks like it is possible I will have at least one that is an improvement.

There is a correlation between the breed's type and how they grow out. Longer, taller birds with big frames flesh out later than shorter wider birds. It takes time to establish that frame. These are polygenic characteristics, so it may not be always universally true. Too many variables for it to be that simple. It can be overcome, but not without difficulty and or consequences. Our commercial broilers are an example.
Still there is a growth spurt where a bird reaches a particular percentage of their height, weight, and length before they molt into their adult plumage. That is a good processing age to consider. Knowing that point is helpful to decide on an age to weigh, handle, and evaluate the birds. For this breed, weight alone does not tell the complete picture. Handling them will give you an opportunity to evaluate how much flesh is on the frame at that age.

My NHs have been well above Standard weight. Enough that they could be disqualified if they were weighed. A friend just reported to me a 10lb bird @ approximately 6 months. That bird may have gotten to 12 lbs by one year. My point is that when there is size to spare, a smaller bird with good fleshing, and good type could be considered. That is if they are large enough. A little too large is better than not large enough, but there is a point where too much size is not keeping with the breed type or standard.
NHs like Delaware tend to be too tall and long, and more Rock like at the excessively larger sizes. With their type they can get too heavy for their legs and lose some athleticism or worse. Many birds could, I am sure, but it is seaming to me with the more compact type of my breed it is certainly so. I have seen it.

It takes a little bit, but we begin to recognize these tendencies in our own flock. It is hard to recommend anything because specific the specifics are unique to the genetic tendencies of a given strain. Seeing these things have helped me to understand what I have.

Too further illustrate a correlation between size and type compared how they grow out, I have read in numerous articles how the old Minorca breeders discouraged selecting the fastest maturing birds. There was a tendency to drift towards a lighter framed and smaller Leghorn type that laid smaller eggs. The advantage a Minorca had at the time was the very large eggs from a hen with a larger frame. It takes time to develop that frame.
Another example is the Jersey Giant. The general recommendation was to not use the fastest maturing birds as breeders. At least in what I found.
EB Thompson mentioned staying away from excessively fast maturing birds saying they got too big too fast, and were clumsy birds. Keep in mind he was talking about a larger breed on a bigger frame that needed more time. He also remarked that he expected his birds to finish well before we expect them to today.

To your questions. You certainly want to move forward with better birds, and for birds that you do not like, there is no reason to breed them. Certainly not to a bird closely related. The inbreeding coefficient for a parent/offspring mating are equal to brother/sister mating in the first 2 or 3 generations. The point is if you have concerns about fixing "bad" that is in a parent and offspring, it would not be the best mating to make unless it was necessary. If it all possible, always move forward with the best birds. There is really no room for loyalty if we want to make progress. Not saying that there isn't often a good reason to retain an older bird. There often is.
My position has become to use a good bird until they are not practical to use, they die, or the are replaced by something better.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I'm breeding one line of one breed. I started with a trio of F4s. I have 51 F5s we hatched here this spring. And that's it for breeding birds.

Now it looks like I'm down to a pair of F4s cuz that one female is now barred buff after her molt instead of white.

Fingers crossed I get an F5 cockerel decent enough to breed (Rex Wing & brassieness are making me nervous). Unless I breed this theoretical decent cockerel to a sister I'll have to breed him to a mother ... the mother/son breeding is what I had planned as that is what Bob Blosl recommended.

Fingers crossed I get a few F5 pullets decent enough to breed (Columbian coloring, brown feathers are making me nervous). If I do, I'll breed them to their father per the Blosl advice.

The Blosl advice seems fairly standard for getting started with line breeding.

But if I don't get any F5s good enough to breed, then I guess I'm done. I'm not being fatalistic, but it is a possibility for a combination of reasons. Right? I don't have another line to pull from.

I see no point in breeding the F4 cock and the one remaining F4 hen to each other again ... I'll just get more of the same birds that aren't fit for breeding.

And with as slowly as these birds mature, I can't even count on the Delawares for spring chicks to "refresh" my laying flock each fall.

Again, I'm not being fatalistic. I'm trying to be responsible and not be another breeder producing funky birds.

Either way it's been a great experience that's for sure. We've really enjoyed the Dels so far.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I droll over you other peoples setup. Are those cattle panels and are the spacings small enough to be predator proof  ?
Looks good.
And yes I noticed yesterday some bloody combs so the are all going real soon. Nothing male from this year is being kept for breeding.
All have at least two faults - Brassy, Rex wings, bad size/type , to  much black and multiple comb points.
Going to switch to #2 Cock this spring even though he is a little brassy and see what I get- using the whitest nicest type hens/pullets.
Its a crap shoot at Poker Hill LOL

Can you share some photos of your best pullets?

I'm bummed for you about the cockerels. But I'm pleased you have a Plan B.

I'm worried about the future of this line. I love that they aren't pinched/squirrelly/shallow like other lines, but brassy with Rex Wing isn't good either.

Frustrating. I have no Plan B.

 

[finnfur]

Can you share some photos of your best pullets?

I'm bummed for you about the cockerels. But I'm pleased you have a Plan B.

I'm worried about the future of this line. I love that they aren't pinched/squirrelly/shallow like other lines, but brassy with Rex Wing isn't good either.

Frustrating. I have no Plan B.

Yes I will try to get some pcs up - the Cockerels got a reprieve as Sharon is having a medical problem - nothing super serious but needs attention- will get back soon
I was reading posts at the hospital and think the one with the light hackles is OK

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Yes I will try to get some pcs up - the Cockerels got a reprieve as Sharon is having a medical problem - nothing super serious but needs attention- will get back soon
I was reading posts at the hospital and think the one with the light hackles is OK

Oh, goodness. I'm hoping all goes well at the hospital!

 

[Zanna]

I'm breeding one line of one breed. I started with a trio of F4s. I have 51 F5s we hatched here this spring. And that's it for breeding birds.

Now it looks like I'm down to a pair of F4s cuz that one female is now barred buff after her molt instead of white.

Fingers crossed I get an F5 cockerel decent enough to breed (Rex Wing & brassieness are making me nervous). Unless I breed this theoretical decent cockerel to a sister I'll have to breed him to a mother ... the mother/son breeding is what I had planned as that is what Bob Blosl recommended.

Fingers crossed I get a few F5 pullets decent enough to breed (Columbian coloring, brown feathers are making me nervous). If I do, I'll breed them to their father per the Blosl advice.

The Blosl advice seems fairly standard for getting started with line breeding.

But if I don't get any F5s good enough to breed, then I guess I'm done. I'm not being fatalistic, but it is a possibility for a combination of reasons. Right? I don't have another line to pull from.

I see no point in breeding the F4 cock and the one remaining F4 hen to each other again ... I'll just get more of the same birds that aren't fit for breeding.

And with as slowly as these birds mature, I can't even count on the Delawares for spring chicks to "refresh" my laying flock each fall.

Again, I'm not being fatalistic. I'm trying to be responsible and not be another breeder producing funky birds.

Either way it's been a great experience that's for sure. We've really enjoyed the Dels so far.

Leslie, here is one idea...... I really like the Cock I sold you. We could trade Cocks and see what that breeding brings. My Cock/hen combinations (2 Cocks,4 hens) produced no pullets that I want to breed forward (I dont think) and am down to six of them. Love the type/size but all have barred tails instead of black feathers with the white border and I don't know what to do about that. Some of my Cockerals are looking very good but I am not sure about the wings yet. They look perfect as the birds are running around but stretching them out and counting feathers two weeks ago I have concerns. Giving it another month then will check again. Even if I only have one decent one, he will get bred back to the four original hens. If I have more than one, you are welcome to him to try over your one hen.

The two original Cocks are finishing up molt. Must confess in my noviceness I never stretched out and counted wing feathers in my original chosen breeders last year. When they are done with molting I will check them all Cocks and Hens. I may decide both original Cocks are not breedable but will know for sure soon. The one whose feathers were coming back in white look brassy already so am thinking he will go for sure. The other is huge, over 14 LBS but no brassiness, he is a nice boy.

I have not seen any brown feathers on any of the F'5's although I culled many early for various reasons. The 6 pullets left and 11 cockerals are not showing any yet and I think mine are all a month or so older than yours.

This is tough because we are all wanting to preserve/improve this new line without going outside of this line. The maturity rate is also a factor for me. If you want to try an experiment I have some really nice NH pullets you could try breeding over your F'4 Cock. You just have to cull all wrongly coloured birds, it is kind of like starting over I think. I may do this if I feel too stuck this coming season. My other thought is to give them all another season to grow, make sure there are no brown feathers, brassiness, wing issues showing up and wait to breed the Dels till 2016. Problem with that is the original hens will be 3 and probably laying less so harder to make progress. Wheels have been turning.

Does anyone know for sure if the wing issues are a dominant or recessive gene? If it is recessive we could all have birds that look good but when we match them up the problem will show up again. That is when I figured out about the recessive white in my Marans. F'1's looked fantastic, I was super excited with my progress. Pairing the best daughters back with Dad gave me 25% white chicks at hatch and the chance that 50% of all the others that were coloured correctly still carry the white gene

Just some thoughts and ideas to mull around.
My Marans and NH mature very quickly in comparison. I had a tough start with the BCM and ended up after 2 years of buying from about 6 different sources still only had one hen I deemed breedable and no Cock for her. Finally I bought chicks from another source and ended up with one breedable cockeral. I hatched 150 chicks from the pair that season even dealing with the hen going broody every 24th egg. Was moving forward well until the Cock hit 2 years old and came in with white tailfeathers so I bought a very nice new Cock at a show and he introduced a recessive white gene to my flock which I am currently working to get rid of. Long story short, all breeds have their issues. You have to weigh their pros and cons and decide if you want to stick it out or try another breed. I messed around with several breeds before I got stuck on the three I have (two too many!!!). No one will think less of you if you decide on another breed. At some point I will most likely drop down to two but I am not ready to do that yet...........

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Zanna, I've been super curious what my cock and your hens would produce. I think you'll get less extra color. If I remember right, my cock is a bit more white than the ones you kept. He isn't huge, and neither is one of the females in my trio, but the F5s seem to be good sized already. His other main fault is his super messy tail with some black in it ... right now it looks split as he lost his sickle feathers in the molt. I could send photos. I'm not seeing the split in the F5s yet.

So I'm totally cool with sending Mr. F4 back your direction. I think it's the best thing for the line.

It would be nicer to have more than one F4 female to work with here as my broody hatching system works best when I can start two clutches at once. That would be hard with one female. Presuming I have a nice cockerel to work with (I think I'll have at least one as nice as my F4 ... one of the older batch looks good, and there are more too young to evaluate).

And how on earth am I going to keep hatches straight with two different breeding pens going and one place I'd prefer to run Broody Camp? I don't like lots of little pens ... I like free-range chicks running with the older birds. Another logistical puzzle to solve. I'm thinking wing bands, but that only solves 1/2 the puzzle.

I'm not ready to give up on Delawares. I do want to be realistic about what I've got to work with.

I'd rather not hatch 150 chicks in one season. I'm not really prepared to cull super young birds. The point of the Delawares, IMO, is that the culls are meals and that implies some age.

Edited again: I do have some pullets with at least some white-edged black in their tails. Those birds also have Columbian-style neck color, so I've presumed they are not worth breeding.

 

[finnfur]

I'm not ready to give up on Delawares. I do want to be realistic about what I've got to work with.

I'd rather not hatch 150 chicks in one season. I'm not really prepared to cull super young birds. The point of the Delawares, IMO, is that the culls are meals and that implies some age.

I am in that camp also . However , less numbers means less chance of finding that "Superman" or hen because the odds go down. But we could get lotto lucky I guess.
My take is that this is a hobby and when it becomes work I don't enjoy I'm going fishing instead.
But I'm still enjoying keeping it small.

 

[crazyhen]

Nooooo My delawere roo is acting sick. He was wormed over a month ago and ivermectin was also put on. He molted terrible but was getting back his feathers nicely. Now he is mooping about. No sneezing or resp. No pox on him just not active at all right ,He even ignored the young buff orp who squatted for him. Also a barred hen is acting the same way. No symptoms but that. Oh I did see the hen do the snake thing with her neck once. I have not introduced new hens and they do not go out of their enclosure. Its a big fenced area with a cover of wire. What is going on?