Delawares from kathyinmo

[finnfur]

In the spirit of a little "book group" discussion, I'm just starting the "Feeding Breeders" section of the Feeding Poultry book by GF Heuser. The book has been reprinted, but is also available to read for free online at this link: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003011545;view=1up;seq=427

The Feeding Breeders chapter starts at page 411 of the manuscript, and I think that link will take you right to the start of the chapter.

A quote: "But, in order to produce good fertile eggs that will develop vigorous chicks, it is necessary to care properly for the breeders. It is necessary to put the quality into the egg because during incubation the embryo develops within the egg independent of the hen. Thus there is inside the egg a developing individual which must be furnished suitable growth conditions."

I'd be interested in reading other people's thoughts. Any feeding tips for good hatch rates and healthy chicks?

Yes - to get holdout pullets to lay preset your freezer to 10 below , put pullet in and next morning eggs 9 out of ten times . We have proof this works from a old time chicken breeder. They think the are going to "freezer camp" and it scares them into laying. It also helps to have a nude female in Oregon shake a egg charming stick your direction.
Excellent strategy Bee I would never have thought about it. Bet you threatened 20 below the next night if no eggs. LOL

 

[Beekissed]

 

[capayvalleychick]

Wasn't able to upload photos last week .... here are my pullets. I couldn't get a good line up shot since the run is narrow. Some of them also were standing in odd position while in the cages, so I also evaluated them loose in the coop.
Two culls due to low weight & size:
O39 was 4 lbs. 5 oz.
O38 was 4 lbs. 14 oz.

The pullet (W38) with the highest weight, 6 lbs. 7 oz., has some things that may also make her a cull, but I'm not sure if I'm mistaking what I'm seeing & feeling. Her keel has a small round bump on the end. One wing may be split, but maybe not, the gap is slight. Her tail angle is also much lower than the rest.

B10 is nice, 6 lbs. has the widest skull, good width from the top but her tail width could be better:


O37 is 5 lbs 14 oz. She has the best width of tail and good width from the top. She has the solid, Columbian type hackle. She's also feisty for a hen, pecks my leg & boot. She lacks a smooth transition from back to tail.


O36 is 5 lbs 7 oz. She is not as wide as the larger pullets, has a shorter back and her tail width could be better. Are tails like this considered a break in the tail? And I think the angle is too high. This photo is not the best.



W36 is also 5 lbs 7 oz. She has good width from the top, medium width of tail. Her hackle has some barring & some solid striping. Her tail almost looks split, which bothers me.


So, those are the females. I do single mating. What I'm wondering is ... do I use every male with every female to see what they produce or should I only pair them according to their qualities?

 

[finnfur]

Kim
When you compare it with this

I like 38 and 36 but would breed them all to different Cocks and see what ya get - start with your best guess selections-don't want to pass up some good genes - Most of my better type females have the more Columbian hackles - hoping the guys can change that as they are much better in that area.

 

[wekiva bird]

Kim
When you compare it with this

I like 38 and 36 but would breed them all to different Cocks and see what ya get - start with your best guess selections-don't want to pass up some good genes - Most of my better type females have the more Columbian hackles - hoping the guys can change that as they are much better in that area.

x2

 

[gjensen]

Wasn't able to upload photos last week .... here are my pullets. I couldn't get a good line up shot since the run is narrow. Some of them also were standing in odd position while in the cages, so I also evaluated them loose in the coop.
Two culls due to low weight & size:
O39 was 4 lbs. 5 oz.
O38 was 4 lbs. 14 oz.

The pullet (W38) with the highest weight, 6 lbs. 7 oz., has some things that may also make her a cull, but I'm not sure if I'm mistaking what I'm seeing & feeling. Her keel has a small round bump on the end. One wing may be split, but maybe not, the gap is slight. Her tail angle is also much lower than the rest.

B10 is nice, 6 lbs. has the widest skull, good width from the top but her tail width could be better:


O37 is 5 lbs 14 oz. She has the best width of tail and good width from the top. She has the solid, Columbian type hackle. She's also feisty for a hen, pecks my leg & boot. She lacks a smooth transition from back to tail.


O36 is 5 lbs 7 oz. She is not as wide as the larger pullets, has a shorter back and her tail width could be better. Are tails like this considered a break in the tail? And I think the angle is too high. This photo is not the best.



W36 is also 5 lbs 7 oz. She has good width from the top, medium width of tail. Her hackle has some barring & some solid striping. Her tail almost looks split, which bothers me.


So, those are the females. I do single mating. What I'm wondering is ... do I use every male with every female to see what they produce or should I only pair them according to their qualities?

Wasn't able to upload photos last week .... here are my pullets. I couldn't get a good line up shot since the run is narrow. Some of them also were standing in odd position while in the cages, so I also evaluated them loose in the coop.
Two culls due to low weight & size:
O39 was 4 lbs. 5 oz.
O38 was 4 lbs. 14 oz.

The pullet (W38) with the highest weight, 6 lbs. 7 oz., has some things that may also make her a cull, but I'm not sure if I'm mistaking what I'm seeing & feeling. Her keel has a small round bump on the end. One wing may be split, but maybe not, the gap is slight. Her tail angle is also much lower than the rest.

B10 is nice, 6 lbs. has the widest skull, good width from the top but her tail width could be better:


O37 is 5 lbs 14 oz. She has the best width of tail and good width from the top. She has the solid, Columbian type hackle. She's also feisty for a hen, pecks my leg & boot. She lacks a smooth transition from back to tail.


O36 is 5 lbs 7 oz. She is not as wide as the larger pullets, has a shorter back and her tail width could be better. Are tails like this considered a break in the tail? And I think the angle is too high. This photo is not the best.



W36 is also 5 lbs 7 oz. She has good width from the top, medium width of tail. Her hackle has some barring & some solid striping. Her tail almost looks split, which bothers me.


So, those are the females. I do single mating. What I'm wondering is ... do I use every male with every female to see what they produce or should I only pair them according to their qualities?

Wasn't able to upload photos last week .... here are my pullets. I couldn't get a good line up shot since the run is narrow. Some of them also were standing in odd position while in the cages, so I also evaluated them loose in the coop.
Two culls due to low weight & size:
O39 was 4 lbs. 5 oz.
O38 was 4 lbs. 14 oz.

The pullet (W38) with the highest weight, 6 lbs. 7 oz., has some things that may also make her a cull, but I'm not sure if I'm mistaking what I'm seeing & feeling. Her keel has a small round bump on the end. One wing may be split, but maybe not, the gap is slight. Her tail angle is also much lower than the rest.

B10 is nice, 6 lbs. has the widest skull, good width from the top but her tail width could be better:


O37 is 5 lbs 14 oz. She has the best width of tail and good width from the top. She has the solid, Columbian type hackle. She's also feisty for a hen, pecks my leg & boot. She lacks a smooth transition from back to tail.


O36 is 5 lbs 7 oz. She is not as wide as the larger pullets, has a shorter back and her tail width could be better. Are tails like this considered a break in the tail? And I think the angle is too high. This photo is not the best.



W36 is also 5 lbs 7 oz. She has good width from the top, medium width of tail. Her hackle has some barring & some solid striping. Her tail almost looks split, which bothers me.


So, those are the females. I do single mating. What I'm wondering is ... do I use every male with every female to see what they produce or should I only pair them according to their qualities?

I would hold onto O38, as a reserve at least. She has the most distinctly marked tail, and you might wish you had her in a year or two. I would be wondering about her weight to. I would scrap her once I produced a couple pullets with better marked tails. Correctly marked tails will be an ongoing refinement. I know type is number one right now, but be careful to hold on to something that might help along the way.

I would not knock O36 too much. Proportionally she is not far off. If her tail was not as high and had better structure she would appear longer and have better balance. Delaware are not especially long birds, and just a little longer than NHs should be. Their capacity comes from their width more than their length. The Delaware in the Schilling print is not especially long. Look for balance.

IMO those prints are the best examples that we have and you guys have the opportunity to have them a bit sharper.

Be on guard to the faults the parent stock had trends towards and you will be better for it in the long run. The NH wings can get a little lazy, and there is some variability in regards to how level they are. Watch for low wings. The tail breaks tend to be a bit exaggerated, but one with good structure could be useful along the way. The BR males tend to have poor tails, breed wide so it would help to stay mindful of it from the start. The BRs and their fine barring and beautiful feather is also a hang up on the tails. The feather does not tend to have the structure to hold up, leaving a bird that tends to be flat across the back with no lift.

Anyways, I just thought I would offer some opinions. You guys have a neat project to work on.

 

[Zanna]

I would hold onto O38, as a reserve at least. She has the most distinctly marked tail, and you might wish you had her in a year or two. I would be wondering about her weight to. I would scrap her once I produced a couple pullets with better marked tails. Correctly marked tails will be an ongoing refinement. I know type is number one right now, but be careful to hold on to something that might help along the way.

I would not knock O36 too much. Proportionally she is not far off. If her tail was not as high and had better structure she would appear longer and have better balance. Delaware are not especially long birds, and just a little longer than NHs should be. Their capacity comes from their width more than their length. The Delaware in the Schilling print is not especially long. Look for balance.

IMO those prints are the best examples that we have and you guys have the opportunity to have them a bit sharper.

Be on guard to the faults the parent stock had trends towards and you will be better for it in the long run. The NH wings can get a little lazy, and there is some variability in regards to how level they are. Watch for low wings. The tail breaks tend to be a bit exaggerated, but one with good structure could be useful along the way. The BR males tend to have poor tails, breed wide so it would help to stay mindful of it from the start. The BRs and their fine barring and beautiful feather is also a hang up on the tails. The feather does not tend to have the structure to hold up, leaving a bird that tends to be flat across the back with no lift.

Anyways, I just thought I would offer some opinions. You guys have a neat project to work on.

Thank you for your helpfull thoughts/comments. I for one feel like I am delving into exciting new territory!!

 

[catdaddyfro]

Thank you for your helpfull thoughts/comments. I for one feel like I am delving into exciting new territory!!

You are Zanna or at least I think so, and as George said: "IMO those prints are the best examples that we have and you guys have the opportunity to have them a bit sharper."

I'd venture to say when the Delaware was developed the stock they had to use was nowhere near as good as the parent stock these Del projects were developed from. Esp on the Barred rock side they simply didn't have Rocks of such proportion back then (go see an old pic of a rock of the early 20th century) The NHs, eeh, probly about the same. The parent stock here, probly had a little more Froo-froo to them than the NHs in the 20's-40's did. Their performance is pretty much on cue though.

One day I will be on board with all ya'll as soon as I ever make up my mind on how i want to go about it.(my problem is I have to many options now, I should have started out when I got my first F1s but I wanted just a little different so I held off but getting more sure on how I will approach this deal soon.

Jeff

Ps George is a good info giver I'm sure he'd help any of ya'll out anytime shoot him a PM he has a noggin full of goodies up in there. He for sure knows those NHs upside down and sideways.(half of the projects) LOL

 

[capayvalleychick]

I would hold onto O38, as a reserve at least. She has the most distinctly marked tail, and you might wish you had her in a year or two. I would be wondering about her weight to. I would scrap her once I produced a couple pullets with better marked tails. Correctly marked tails will be an ongoing refinement. I know type is number one right now, but be careful to hold on to something that might help along the way.

I appreciate everyone's comments on these birds.

George, what you suggested above is interesting. I tend to think like that, when I see a trait that I would like to have in the flock. With my other breed, especially, I feel like each bird has one piece of the puzzle that I need to put together. With that breed, I have one bird that has the perfect Standard type tail. She, also, is low weight. When I mentioned keeping her and using her with my breeders, I was told ( by breeders that are online) that it was ridiculous to save a small bird for any use in a breeding program. I wondered the same about these culls, if I might need some trait that they might possess. That's why I put those two culls out with my pastured layers, instead of the cull pen.

 

[gjensen]

I appreciate everyone's comments on these birds.

George, what you suggested above is interesting. I tend to think like that, when I see a trait that I would like to have in the flock. With my other breed, especially, I feel like each bird has one piece of the puzzle that I need to put together. With that breed, I have one bird that has the perfect Standard type tail. She, also, is low weight. When I mentioned keeping her and using her with my breeders, I was told ( by breeders that are online) that it was ridiculous to save a small bird for any use in a breeding program. I wondered the same about these culls, if I might need some trait that they might possess. That's why I put those two culls out with my pastured layers, instead of the cull pen.

It is not simple is it? Everyone will have different ideas. It is more than what we see though. The easy part is the seeing what is wrong or right. The hard part is getting all of the right in and wrong out.

I think we have to take in consideration what is behind the bird also. In other words size is an especially big deal if that is the trend, but you guys are getting good sized birds. The offspring will still be variable, so if there is a valuable trait in one that you are short on, it might be advisable to utilize it, or hold onto it. You certainly do not want to lose that trait along the way. What is that saying, "first do no harm."?

I think the key to smart culling is knowing your birds. Knowing their tendencies. If they have a tendency toward a fault, then those faults are more of a problem than otherwise. The family behind the bird has as much influence or more than the individual bird. The most important faults to be concerned with is the ones that you are seeing in your birds and everyone else's. You guys do not want those faults fixed and be stuck with them, or give you a lot of grief along the way.
I started this year thinking that I was going to cull for this or that. I had all kinds of visions in my head, but as I got to know them, I had a much different reality than I had pictured before.

I did not get far into my Catalana project before I realized that if I culled for everything that bothered me, I would have an empty yard. We are not improving or maintaining some pretty birds that we bought from somewhere. We are building something, and to build something we need all of the parts.

I would take those three males, and complimentary mate them to the six females according to what you see. I think it is commendable that you are going to single mate. You could scrap any pairing at any point. You will know who is from who. It did not take me long to decide that I believe in single mating. It is not the only way, but it is hard to argue the advantages.

I would not worry about line breeding yet. You need that individual that makes you smile to base a family on. If you hatch enough, and grow out enough, you will see a couple of those this year. Then you have something to base a couple families off of. The bird does not have to be perfect, it just has to be pretty darn good.

I am kind of in the same place this year. I will be looking for an individual or two that I can build on. If I am that fortunate, things will be a little simpler moving forward.

I am not offering advice, just thoughts and ideas. I do not know anymore than anyone, and am just trying to figure it all out like everyone else. My perspective comes from the challenge of a project myself. If we continue in this hobby, we will have been better off from these experiences. This is not for the faint of heart and will require a lot of hatching.

This is a good bunch here, and I will enjoy watching.