Delawares from kathyinmo

[capayvalleychick]

Following up on the post above: I've finally ordered the SOP. Took me long enough, huh?

You will be glad that you got it, early on. I made the mistake of breeding for several years before getting it. I had to practically start over again. I had been allowing so many defects & dqs, because I had never looked at the Standard.

About the Facebook Delaware groups... there are so many that I'm not sure which one is the actual Club group. ??? I joined the one that I thought was the Club but there are only a few people in it. Then, I noticed another, that has more people. I don't have time to be in so many groups. Wish there was one single Club forum that everyone could participate in.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

You will be glad that you got it, early on. I made the mistake of breeding for several years before getting it. I had to practically start over again. I had been allowing so many defects & dqs, because I had never looked at the Standard.

About the Facebook Delaware groups... there are so many that I'm not sure which one is the actual Club group. ??? I joined the one that I thought was the Club but there are only a few people in it. Then, I noticed another, that has more people. I don't have time to be in so many groups. Wish there was one single Club forum that everyone could participate in.

I think I'm going to be a bit overwhelmed at first, being presented with all the stuff I don't know.

I think the "official" Facebook group page of the "new" Delaware club is the one named "Delaware Poultry Club United." I know there is at least one judge who is an admin of that group page. It isn't terribly active, but there are some good posts there.

 

[alibra]

what gorgeous birds.

 

[gjensen]

Zanna, nice to have an update from you. It brings up a question that I've been considering.

Since we are all starting out with a small number of these Dels from Kathy, how important is creating breeding groups or families, so that you make a wider genetic pool?

Do we just breed the best to the best, complimentary matings, with no regard to how they are related?

Or, do we breed as many as possible at first, so that we have more diverse genetics within our flock?

I only have 4 breedable F4 hens from Kathy. I planned on making several "family groups" by using 4 males with these hens. Except, now I'm down to 2 F4 cocks. All 86 offspring this year was from 1 of those cocks. The second male is showing a bit of brassiness.

So, I wonder if I should just continue on, breeding the best to the best from the small gene pool of 4 hens & 1 cock? Or do I use the brassy cock to create another genetic group?

Complicating this is the fact that a couple of those 4 hens were producers of better offspring than the other 2. Yet, those same two hens produced defects ie cross beak.

With 4 breedable hens, it would be wise to work back away. Initially this strain had enough to pay little regard to it while looking for something to base a family on. 4 hens would mean two families to me.

I would not use a brassy male.

Best to best, breeding extremes, complimentary mating, etc can change from year to year etc. You see what you like, know what you want, and know where the problems are.

Brother and sister mating is no closer than parent offspring mating initially. Repeated, the accumulation is faster with brother sister mating. It takes more than one generation before the two options begin to have separation between the two. I believe that brother sister mating can be a tool to set a line or a characteristic etc. In such a case, it seams better to do it on the side and to hatch many from this group. Again, a parent offspring mating is no less close, unless it continues to be repeated.

You do not want to get to tight until you like what you have. Try to hold on to characteristics that your best birds do not have. They could be useful in side mating etc. We do not want to lose what we have. There will be some variation from flock to flock, but the tendencies will be generalized because the starting point was the same. In other words many of the same problems that you could have, might be had in other flocks of the same strain. Once a strength is lost, we cannot rely on it magically reappearing at some point. Even that it is possible to get a throwback that is useful.

Side mating adds diversity when a trait that is realized reliably could be introduced into an individual family. From my perspective, I have everything I need. I do not have it all in an individual at this point. I did not even have all that I needed, so I had to bring something in. I have a modified grading project that I hope is successful enough to use them as an outcross.

There is more to cross beak than a simple recessive. It seams best to treat it as a recessive, and if it becomes problematic, test mate. I would be reluctant to repeat a mating that produced offspring with crossed beaks. Particularly this early in the game, where it could be left lingering underneath the surface to deal with in future generations. At this point, culling the offspring and scrapping the parents could be all that it took to eliminate it from the flock. Three or four generations from now, it could be especially problematic.

How many to breed is a personal decision depending on how important it is to you to remain independent. It takes a qty. of birds to remain independent for long periods of time. Regardless, I believe that mating in small groups is best where it is easier to identify the contributors of both good and bad. Furthermore, I want the opportunity to use more males rather than commit all of my eggs to one or two baskets. I at least want to keep some back up in case a sire does not perform adequately when I prove him by his offspring. Regardless of what is best for an individual, how many hatched could be considered directly related. The less adults I keep, means the more eggs I want to set per mating. Where the more adults I kept, the less I would be concerned with hatching per hen. They qty. of offspring hatched not only allows for added variation to select from, but contributes to genetic diversity as a result.

As these individual flocks began to separate from each other, I would not be reluctant to get a bird from birds that were strong where I was weak. That is an advantage that you guys have the opportunity to realize.

I hope that this contains something useful. I have a different project, but I do have a re building project. These types of projects are exceedingly challenging except for those that have mediocre standards. It is easy to make something, but difficult to perfect. My project, and as a result, my perspective is different. Some of the concepts are the same, so I like to share my thoughts. I am learning as I go myself. I have done nothing to brag on. I do feel that I have made progress locating the puzzle pieces. Now it is time for me to start putting the puzzle pieces together. It took me three generations just to accomplish this.

 

[Zanna]

As these individual flocks began to separate from each other, I would not be reluctant to get a bird from birds that were strong where I was weak. That is an advantage that you guys have the opportunity to realize.

I hope that this contains something useful. I have a different project, but I do have a re building project. These types of projects are exceedingly challenging except for those that have mediocre standards. It is easy to make something, but difficult to perfect. My project, and as a result, my perspective is different. Some of the concepts are the same, so I like to share my thoughts. I am learning as I go myself. I have done nothing to brag on. I do feel that I have made progress locating the puzzle pieces. Now it is time for me to start putting the puzzle pieces together. It took me three generations just to accomplish this.

Thank you for commenting, lots of helpful information!

On your comment of not using a brassy male, I agree. One of the Cocks from Kathy's F'4's that I used this Spring gradually got brassy looking as summer progressed. He is just finishing up a molt now and all of the brassiness is gone. So, I am thinking a sun issue. Will a truly brassy bird after molt grow back brassy looking? What I don't get is that I have a 5 year old hatchery leghorn Cock with the freeranging flock and several of his daughters. Not one, in all these years has gone the slightest bit yellow looking, their feathers always stay perfectly white.

 

[gjensen]

Thank you for commenting, lots of helpful information!

On your comment of not using a brassy male, I agree. One of the Cocks from Kathy's F'4's that I used this Spring gradually got brassy looking as summer progressed. He is just finishing up a molt now and all of the brassiness is gone. So, I am thinking a sun issue. Will a truly brassy bird after molt grow back brassy looking? What I don't get is that I have a 5 year old hatchery leghorn Cock with the freeranging flock and several of his daughters. Not one, in all these years has gone the slightest bit yellow looking, their feathers always stay perfectly white.

The Leghorns are dominate white.

There is a gene contributed by the Barred Rocks that keeps the recessive white of the Delaware clean. It seams that some would be carrying it.

I do not have any practical experience with it myself, so I will withhold a comment. I would suggest trying to learn as much as I could from the experts that breed the Columbian variety. There is a lot of overlap between the two. I have been trying to pick up the fundamentals of balancing the black.
I bet Scott, Yard Full of Rocks, could add something if he was asked.

My hesitation about using a brassy bird would be losing what cleaned them up initially. At least if there was a male that did not become brassy. Maybe you guys have learned something that I do not know. I have paid some attention because I like the breed, and I like black tailed white birds. Good ones anyways. I think the black tail on an otherwise white bird, is an attractive color. Much more so than an all white bird. BTR, BTB, and BTW are my three favorite varieties.

 

[fowlman01]

I think I'm going to be a bit overwhelmed at first, being presented with all the stuff I don't know. 

I think the "official" Facebook group page of the "new" Delaware club is the one named "Delaware Poultry Club United." I know there is at least one judge who is an admin of that group page. It isn't terribly active, but there are some good posts there. 

try the APA Facebook page. You can ask questions.

Walt

 

[capayvalleychick]

Will a truly brassy bird after molt grow back brassy looking? What I don't get is that I have a 5 year old hatchery leghorn Cock with the freeranging flock and several of his daughters. Not one, in all these years has gone the slightest bit yellow looking, their feathers always stay perfectly white.

George is right about this.

The sun brings out the brassiness. He'll probably turn brassy again. If they yellow from the sun, that's part of how you tell if they are brassy, from what I think I understand.

The thing that I see, only in this line, is sort of a dirty off white. It's difficult to describe. On some off these males, where there is barring, the barring is sort of dark brown, smudged on the edges. The surrounding feathers are a dingy white. I wonder if it has something to do with the NH influencing the feather color? I culled for it.

 

[fowlman01]

Brassiness usually only occurs in male Sickles and hackles in recessive white birds. Birds with dominant white don't get brassy. Leghorns usually don't get brassy even in full sun.

Walt

 

[Zanna]

Brassiness usually only occurs in male Sickles and hackles in recessive white birds. Birds with dominant white don't get brassy. Leghorns usually don't get brassy even in full sun.

Walt

The F'4 Cock I have that is just finishing up his molt got brassy looking on top of his head as well. Will see if I can get a pic. That has not molted out yet and maybe it won't....

Also have a mutt chick/pullet of his on the ground that a broody appeared with. She has one twisted feather on each side of her wing, will try to get a pic. of her too. Does anyone know if this is random or a cull factor for the Dad? She will be a cull regardless but I have read to pull them out and see if it grows back normally, worth the experiment??

Any tips on counting wingfeathers? Took a good look at the wings of all ten of the cockeral F'5's that are old enough now that I should be able to tell. Some that have very good looking wings when folded up, appear to have 11 primaries, the axial and 9 secondaries. Don't know what I am doing!!! I have compared to some of my NH the same age, 10 primaries, axial and 10 secondaries, they look perfect. Will try to get a pic tonight of what I am talking about as well. I believe one of the 10 cockerals definitely has split wing so he will get butchered with the turkeys in a couple of weeks.