Delawares from kathyinmo

[LeslieDJoyce]

At the facebook breed club, someone from Texas was showing photos of their Delawares ... and the chicks they just hatched. But they claim they "can't remember" where they got their birds.

There is a farm in Texas ... Cobb Creek Farm ... that has a line of Delawares they're breeding to use as pastured Heritage meat birds. They look funny to me, but the growth rates they state about them on their website sure make me envious.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Over at the Delaware Club's facebook group page we're going to be working on a couple group, member-driven projects we think will be useful to people working with Delawares. I made a more detailed post about it over at the Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection thread. We'd love everyone's help!

Let me know if you need help finding the post ...

 

[dmanhefner]

Cobb creek is not selling at this time. Said program us in limbo

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Cobb creek is not selling at this time. Said program us in limbo

That's super unfortunate! I wonder what happened. I know someone up in Washington who was really hoping to get some starter birds from them, as they've already been working to select them for performance as pastured meat birds.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Here is one of the younger cockerels (PapaDel breeding) of the batch we sent to the processor a while back, ready to cook. Not a very big bird, as you can see ... only dressed to about 4.5 lbs with the neck still on. No brining ... and only the second time I've used the dutch oven instead of dry roasting. He was SO tender and mild.

I think he was about 25 weeks old, so still well past what one would aim for with pastured meat birds, so we've got some improving to do with growth rates and such.

The point is: I might become an "early cull" convert.

Is slow growth in males common for this line? I read on last page someone said the cockerels take two months longer than pullets, think that's for evaluating breeders but for growth the Deleware should be early to mature. Is this not the case in this Line?

Anyone have live weights at different ages of cockerels? Anyone cull at 12-14 weeks and have dressed weight?

It's a lot of questions but curious if this new line was able to get back the fast maturing of original Delaware.

 

[finnfur]

Is slow growth in males common for this line? I read on last page someone said the cockerels take two months longer than pullets, think that's for evaluating breeders but for growth the Deleware should be early to mature. Is this not the case in this Line?

Anyone have live weights at different ages of cockerels? Anyone cull at 12-14 weeks and have dressed weight?

It's a lot of questions but curious if this new line was able to get back the fast maturing of original Delaware.

Short answer is - not yet .but we are not sure what that was with the old 50s Delaware ?
This study may be interesting to you http://japr.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/10/25/japr.2013-00843.full
And keep in mind two things.
1. The study used hatchery Delaware's to compare with the BroilerXs.
2. I am not aware of anybody that is much further than F8 on this line.
Its a work in progress with great potential.
Most with this line have been holding longer on cull time to select potential breeders.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Finnfur- your attached study has reference note to 1951 print and average dressed weight of 1.81 Kg at 12 weeks compared to the modern Deleware used in this study that dressed to 1.665 Kg in 12 weeks. The point being genetics of fast maturing have not been maintained since the 50's.

There is also records of the New Hampshire when a fast maturing bird in early to mid 20th century that they dressed to 4 lbs in 12 weeks. The Deleware back then dressed same in same time, an exacting number is that 1.81 Kg that equates to 3.99 lbs. This would be on order of live weight cockerels of 6 lbs in 12 weeks.

Anyone getting 6 lbs live weight cockerels at 12 weeks from this line? I ask as curious if promise of fast maturity (relative to heritage birds) is in this line or if perhaps it's still in one of the New Hampshire lines. The only way to know is see recorded weights either live or dress at different ages. Some of you must be doing this as how else would you choose an early maturing bird to breed forward? If you only choose birds based on adult weights and plumage then your missing the greatest quality of the breed and it's intent.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Finnfur- your attached study has reference note to 1951 print and average dressed weight of 1.81 Kg at 12 weeks compared to the modern Deleware used in this study that dressed to 1.665 Kg in 12 weeks. The point being genetics of fast maturing have not been maintained since the 50's.

There is also records of the New Hampshire when a fast maturing bird in early to mid 20th century that they dressed to 4 lbs in 12 weeks. The Deleware back then dressed same in same time, an exacting number is that 1.81 Kg that equates to 3.99 lbs. This would be on order of live weight cockerels of 6 lbs in 12 weeks.

Anyone getting 6 lbs live weight cockerels at 12 weeks from this line? I ask as curious if promise of fast maturity (relative to heritage birds) is in this line or if perhaps it's still in one of the New Hampshire lines. The only way to know is see recorded weights either live or dress at different ages. Some of you must be doing this as how else would you choose an early maturing bird to breed forward? If you only choose birds based on adult weights and plumage then your missing the greatest quality of the breed and it's intent.

Generally, I don't think anyone is getting 6 lbs from any actual breed at 12 weeks. I believe only hybrids grow that fast. But then, I don't know if anyone is growing any actual breeds indoors, where feed efficiency is higher.

Specifically, no, the Kathy's Line Delawares do not grow that fast. By that I mean the people who started with the F4s that Kathy sent out a few years ago. I believe Kathy is distributing a revised version of Delawares, but for now "Kathy's Line" means birds descending from those original F4s.

There are not a lot of us working with this line, and I believe we are all working on other things.

I don't agree that the meat quality of the bird ever was the greatest quality of the breed. Evidence suggests the historical interest in the breed was primarily due to the feather and leg color, secondarily for meat efficiency.

It's been explained to me over and over, you can only select for characteristics that you can see. I do not see any difference in maturity rates of my Delawares, so maturity rate is not something I am selecting for. Even if I could see differences in growth rate, a fast-growing bird is not my priority.

 

[finnfur]

There are not any original 50s generation out there to compare to that I am aware of
The weights you quote were commercial house operations feed high protein food with little movement.
You can't compass that to free range birds. The market birds prior to CornishX were not free range .
I am convinced this line can achieve table weight in 12>14 weeks. You will need to use high protein commercial type feed and restrict calorie burn.
Even free range broilers don't obtain a commercial grade carcass like the pro's do.
All depends what ya want.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

There are not any original 50s generation out there to compare to that I am aware of
The weights you quote were commercial house operations feed high protein food with little movement.
You can't compass that to free range birds. The market birds prior to CornishX were not free range .
I am convinced this line can achieve table weight in 12>14 weeks. You will need to use high protein commercial type feed and restrict calorie burn.
Even free range broilers don't obtain a commercial grade carcass like the pro's do.
All depends what ya want.

Also ... are we sure the historical numbers are from Delawares? From what I understand, the Delawares were more the beauty queens of the meat industry, not the most muscled up birds.