Delawares from kathyinmo

[Egghead_Jr]

Fin and Fur, the numbers are straight from the study link you posted earlier. Through that link I read another study done in 2002 where the slow growth genotype (does not specify breed) had males obtain 3.5 lbs dress weight in 81 days, 11.5 weeks. This was using 20% starter, 18% grower and 15% finisher to 4 weeks, 8 weeks and finish. So this is weight and dressed weight in a study using normal feed and males of generic slow maturing making 3.5 lbs butcher weight in 12 weeks. Now the numbers in study Fin n Fur provided reports 1.81 Kg with reference number that if you look at bottom of study show it to be from a 1951 study. That posted study of this century showed results of 1.665 Kg dressed weight of a hatchery stock Delaware. Now that study specifically did not state what feed type was used only that is was same as what was given to CornishX.

I'm not looking to debate validity of #'s of studies. I'm simply asking if the faster maturing (relative to standard bred birds) trait the Deleware was designed on is still prevalent. As in does this line of bird, cockerels only to keep it simple, reach weight of 6 lbs live at 12 weeks? It's a yeah they do or no they only get to 5.5 lbs. If they are less than that then they missed the mark of the breed. As it was derived from Indian Runners that were result of Barred Plymouth over New Hampshire. There were sports. Those sports were used (plumage desired and easily recognizable for a breed with distinct ticking of hackle) to breed making the Delaware. Meant for smaller scale broiler industry as a sole breed in lieu of need for crossing Plymouth to New Hampshire. What resulted is a bird that made same weight in 12 weeks as the fast maturing New Hampshire in those years. That's 4 lbs dressed in 12 weeks or 6 lbs live weight. The advantage would be a white bird for better table carcass than a New Hampshire provides. Likely the Hybrid cross had better numbers. The numbers are not in dispute. I'm only asking if this line does that?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Fin and Fur, the numbers are straight from the study link you posted earlier. Through that link I read another study done in 2002 where the slow growth genotype (does not specify breed) had males obtain 3.5 lbs dress weight in 81 days, 11.5 weeks. This was using 20% starter, 18% grower and 15% finisher to 4 weeks, 8 weeks and finish. So this is weight and dressed weight in a study using normal feed and males of generic slow maturing making 3.5 lbs butcher weight in 12 weeks. Now the numbers in study Fin n Fur provided reports 1.81 Kg with reference number that if you look at bottom of study show it to be from a 1951 study. That posted study of this century showed results of 1.665 Kg dressed weight of a hatchery stock Delaware. Now that study specifically did not state what feed type was used only that is was same as what was given to CornishX.

I'm not looking to debate validity of #'s of studies. I'm simply asking if the faster maturing (relative to standard bred birds) trait the Deleware was designed on is still prevalent. As in does this line of bird, cockerels only to keep it simple, reach weight of 6 lbs live at 12 weeks? It's a yeah they do or no they only get to 5.5 lbs. If they are less than that then they missed the mark of the breed. As it was derived from Indian Runners that were result of Barred Plymouth over New Hampshire. There were sports. Those sports were used (plumage desired and easily recognizable for a breed with distinct ticking of hackle) to breed making the Delaware. Meant for smaller scale broiler industry as a sole breed in lieu of need for crossing Plymouth to New Hampshire. What resulted is a bird that made same weight in 12 weeks as the fast maturing New Hampshire in those years. That's 4 lbs dressed in 12 weeks or 6 lbs live weight. The advantage would be a white bird for better table carcass than a New Hampshire provides. Likely the Hybrid cross had better numbers. The numbers are not in dispute. I'm only asking if this line does that?

No, this line of Delawares is not reaching 6 lbs live weight in 11.5 weeks.

 

[finnfur]

Also ... are we sure the historical numbers are from Delawares? From what I understand, the Delawares were more the beauty queens of the meat industry, not the most muscled up birds.

And to get a non black pin feather bird

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

And to get a non black pin feather bird

Exactly. Yellow legs and no ink stains on the carcass.

 

[caychris]

@Egghead_Jr I have not seen evidence of that either. I think that the population of these birds is also quite small with no one breeding toward meat production in the terms you are talking about. Most are free range birds and I know of no person with the line that is raising in significant qty to do justice to any real study of production qualities.

There are other lines of delawares where meat production is the aim but even those are fairly few.

There is a group of Delaware hybrid birds (DEL x NH) that is sold by Cackle hatchery for meat quality

The line is still very young and there are other Issues of type and color that many are dealing with.

12 weeks does seem to be a bit fast to me for a heritage breed bird. I would think something closer to 20. I did read somewhere that the meat quality of older delawares was still really good so the 18-24 week range for the kind of weights you are talking about seems more acheivable in free range birds

My pita pintas are very nice birds and Ive had to wait till 24 weeks to get something above 3 lbs dressed (now the bird is smaller than a del in general) but I have not been feeding and housing them on a meat program. Im sure i could achieve a 4lb bird in this breed under the right conditions in as little as 20 weeks (pita that is) I would think that under the same conditions the Dels should dress out around 5 lbs I think the hybrid meat birds of many stripes are influencing our expectation of heritage breed birds.

The study seemed to indicate that Dels were nearing 5 lb at 15 weeks. If you go much beyond 18 weeks then you start to run into issues of juvenile molt where feed to weight is going to take a hit.

As others have said this line is limited in availability and there is no one attempting to maximize meat production with these birds.

It is also my understanding that the likelihood of getting fast growing genes in the initial cross is on the low end of the spectrum so you would have to start with birds in the initial cross that exhibit the traits to have any real hope of getting to a fast growing broiler. History of the breeding activities of Mr Ellis are sparse. Based on all I have read , genetically speaking, the chances of pure delawares preforming much better than the study are slim.

 

[finnfur]

@Egghead_Jr I have not seen evidence of that either. I think that the population of these birds is also quite small with no one breeding toward meat production in the terms you are talking about. Most are free range birds and I know of no person with the line that is raising in significant qty to do justice to any real study of production qualities.

There are other lines of delawares where meat production is the aim but even those are fairly few.

There is a group of Delaware hybrid birds (DEL x NH) that is sold by Cackle hatchery for meat quality

The line is still very young and there are other Issues of type and color that many are dealing with.

12 weeks does seem to be a bit fast to me for a heritage breed bird. I would think something closer to 20. I did read somewhere that the meat quality of older delawares was still really good so the 18-24 week range for the kind of weights you are talking about seems more acheivable in free range birds

My pita pintas are very nice birds and Ive had to wait till 24 weeks to get something above 3 lbs dressed (now the bird is smaller than a del in general) but I have not been feeding and housing them on a meat program. Im sure i could achieve a 4lb bird in this breed under the right conditions in as little as 20 weeks (pita that is) I would think that under the same conditions the Dels should dress out around 5 lbs I think the hybrid meat birds of many stripes are influencing our expectation of heritage breed birds.

The study seemed to indicate that Dels were nearing 5 lb at 15 weeks. If you go much beyond 18 weeks then you start to run into issues of juvenile molt where feed to weight is going to take a hit.

As others have said this line is limited in availability and there is no one attempting to maximize meat production with these birds.

It is also my understanding that the likelihood of getting fast growing genes in the initial cross is on the low end of the spectrum so you would have to start with birds in the initial cross that exhibit the traits to have any real hope of getting to a fast growing broiler. History of the breeding activities of Mr Ellis are sparse. Based on all I have read , genetically speaking, the chances of pure delawares preforming much better than the study are slim.

Ditto's - but I point out I don't know of anyone that has pushed the commercial feed on them and restricted calorie burn.
And we won't know till its tried. Waiting for breed material is the drawback in early cull dates.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I'm curious now if there are currently any actual breeds that reach 6 lbs in 11.5 weeks.

 

[caychris]

I'm curious now if there are currently any actual breeds that reach 6 lbs in 11.5 weeks.

I seriously doubt it. I was looking for heritage growth comparisons and found this I think you may have seen it before but seems in line with the study talked about.
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNC12-866&y=2013&t=1

 

[Egghead_Jr]

This is study Finnfur posted earlier:

http://japr.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/10/25/japr.2013-00843.full

University study, done with hatchery stock Delaware. If you read down the page in study you'll see 1.665 Kg BW (butcher weight) at 12 weeks for these birds and compared to 1.81 Kg at 12 weeks with reference # that if you locate bottom of page is from 1951 study.

To move the birds to dual purpose utility you'd only need to weigh birds at younger ages and make notations with their tag number. With birds that mature faster they don't get as large as the lankier hatch mates. So if end growth weights are your goal your pulling the line further from utility. Look at the Good Shepherd line of Barred Plymouth Rocks. In the day they were used in broiler crosses. The present state of bird is lanky cockerels that are all frame and no mass until long past being cock birds. By no means were they a fast grower in the day but had better mass with larger frame so worked well when mated to faster to mature birds. They were bred in a fashion over decades that pulled them away from actual standard. The New Hampshire and resulting Delaware were prized for fast maturity. Their end weights are full lbs lower than Plymouth Rocks as that was not the aim to butcher old birds.

Thanks all for the info. I'm looking into other lines but if you have any leads to standard bred Delaware in utility line I'd appreciate it.

One place I found is Whitmore Farm in Maryland and have asked them about their line. Any other lines?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

This is study Finnfur posted earlier:

http://japr.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/10/25/japr.2013-00843.full

University study, done with hatchery stock Delaware. If you read down the page in study you'll see 1.665 Kg BW (butcher weight) at 12 weeks for these birds and compared to 1.81 Kg at 12 weeks with reference # that if you locate bottom of page is from 1951 study.

To move the birds to dual purpose utility you'd only need to weigh birds at younger ages and make notations with their tag number. With birds that mature faster they don't get as large as the lankier hatch mates. So if end growth weights are your goal your pulling the line further from utility. Look at the Good Shepherd line of Barred Plymouth Rocks. In the day they were used in broiler crosses. The present state of bird is lanky cockerels that are all frame and no mass until long past being cock birds. By no means were they a fast grower in the day but had better mass with larger frame so worked well when mated to faster to mature birds. They were bred in a fashion over decades that pulled them away from actual standard. The New Hampshire and resulting Delaware were prized for fast maturity. Their end weights are full lbs lower than Plymouth Rocks as that was not the aim to butcher old birds.

Thanks all for the info. I'm looking into other lines but if you have any leads to standard bred Delaware in utility line I'd appreciate it.

One place I found is Whitmore Farm in Maryland and have asked them about their line. Any other lines?

Thank you for the explanation about how to select the fastest growers.

If you're looking for Delawares that conform to the Standard, then the Kathy's Line birds come the closest. For now. There are a few breeders working to bring Delawares back to the standard.

In the study you link to, they used birds from McMurray Hatchery.

https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/delaware.html

These birds will not conform to the standard, but I don't know of any lines that will grow faster.

Also, the Sustainable Poultry Network is promoting Delawares as pastured meat birds. That link states they started with "several breeding lines" of Delawares. I don't have much info on the growth rates or conformation of those birds.

http://market.spnusa.com/

I believe the 1.665 KG @ 12 week weight mentioned for the Delawares in the 2014 study was for live birds, or 3.5 lbs., and the study recommended that the birds be grown for 15 weeks on pasture. The 1950 study was for industrial strains of New Hampshires and Barred Plymouth Rocks, and hybrids of those industrial strains, raised in industrial conditions.