Delawares

[speckledhen]

More than anything the breeding pair this chick came from are probably not pure delaware. There are a lot of Delaware NH crosses that are sold as delawares and look like it the delaware genetics could throw mutts like this if they are close to initial cross or have been bred back to NH within a generation or so.

This is true. Anything that does not look like a Delaware cannot be called one. This breed almost went extinct and it's still endangered. Even with the Delawares you see today, not many are really good ones. Hatcheries bred in Production Reds and Columbian Rocks when the numbers were perilously low and ruined the color and type of the Delaware.


Breeders like the one I got my stock from were trying to bring it back to its former glory but it's still an uphill battle. Even if you have a rooster with solid black tail feathers and hackles, no matter if it came from parents that appeared to have proper Delaware color, it's not kosher to call it a Delaware in light of the fact that they are so endangered and plain old messed up now.

The original Delaware was a white sport from a BR x New Hampshire mating. They began recreating that happy accident and the Delaware was born, but it is in NO way a crossbreed now. It breeds true. Someone just can't cross them and think they have a Delaware the first generation, though some have taken on the challenge of recreating a line of Delawares like they were originally created. That takes years and years and lots of culling to get there.

 

[caychris]

This is true. Anything that does not look like a Delaware cannot be called one. This breed almost went extinct and it's still endangered. Even with the Delawares you see today, not many are really good ones. Hatcheries bred in Production Reds and Columbian Rocks when the numbers were perilously low and ruined the color and type of the Delaware.


Breeders like the one I got my stock from were trying to bring it back to its former glory but it's still an uphill battle. Even if you have a rooster with solid black tail feathers and hackles, no matter if it came from parents that appeared to have proper Delaware color, it's not kosher to call it a Delaware in light of the fact that they are so endangered and plain old messed up now.

I wouldnt go that far because according to the APA a delaware is any bird that is being judged against the standard there is no "Genetic" purity test to say something is or is not a delaware all you have to go by is the Standard vs what you see in the bird. Many many delawares today are nothing close to standard of those that come close most are reproduction projects a half dozen or more generations away from the initial cross. Painting the barn so to speak for a delaware is an incredibly complex mix of genes not to mention maintaining it. According to the APA to be accepted as a breed the birds must breed true at or better than 50% of the time. This leaves a lot of variation for things off standard to be a delaware and look nothing like them. Also according to some APA judges the SOP is intended to weed our nearly 90% of the population of a breed so expecting cream of the crop delawares even among show quality pairings most of the time is to set unrealistic expectations. Add into that the cost of keeping male birds vs females you can begin to understand how difficult it is to really get to a line of really well self replicating Show quality birds. Not to mention that so many of the qualities we want seem to never manifest in the same bird. Also considering that we often have to carry flawed birds forward so as to not lose genetic components that are very fickle I would be very hesitant to call something not a delaware due to flaws. Breeding genetic components back into a line using out crossing is an acceptable breeding practice. Considering that Ellis's exact breeding program is not documented and crossing Delaware males back to NH hens is one way of improving the columbian like pattern we cannot say for sure where a Delaware really starts. With all the above I can accept anything as being called a delaware if it was built off the PBRxNH formula and in some fashion conforms to the SOP. I just accept that there are lots of flawed lines out there and only try to breed forward and improve towards standard.

 

[kidcody]

HI,
I haven't been checking my email for several on and off months But what I can tell you is that you do have a beautiful Delaware Perhaps he is not a show quality Delaware but he has all the qualities of a Delaware that is worth keeping and breeding, I can say he is rather beautiful and would make a wonderful addition to your breeding program, and plus as a wonderful pet I'm glad you have decided to keep him I would have to say his good quality's out way the bad, I'm a believer in out weighting the good along with wonderful attitudes that make up a wonderful addition to any breeding program or even a pet.
I hope this helps your decisions. I'm also glad you ask me for you input on your bird, It always helps to get some advice from a outsider,

Myself...I care deeply for all animals and find it difficulty in caring for all creatures, I hope I can be some help to you and others, All animals bring so much happiness to all of us, If there is any way I can help you or your family bring loving animals to make life easier, I'm the first to try helping, If there is anything I can do for you or your family, I'm always here for you, Just give me time to get back with you I would rather be you friend to help or give guidance to help you along the way, Life is too short! lets make the best of it!
Friend from Europe.

 

[speckledhen]

I wouldnt go that far because according to the APA a delaware is any bird that is being judged against the standard there is no "Genetic" purity test to say something is or is not a delaware all you have to go by is the Standard vs what you see in the bird. Many many delawares today are nothing close to standard of those that come close most are reproduction projects a half dozen or more generations away from the initial cross. Painting the barn so to speak for a delaware is an incredibly complex mix of genes not to mention maintaining it. According to the APA to be accepted as a breed the birds must breed true at or better than 50% of the time. This leaves a lot of variation for things off standard to be a delaware and look nothing like them. Also according to some APA judges the SOP is intended to weed our nearly 90% of the population of a breed so expecting cream of the crop delawares even among show quality pairings most of the time is to set unrealistic expectations. Add into that the cost of keeping male birds vs females you can begin to understand how difficult it is to really get to a line of really well self replicating Show quality birds. Not to mention that so many of the qualities we want seem to never manifest in the same bird. Also considering that we often have to carry flawed birds forward so as to not lose genetic components that are very fickle I would be very hesitant to call something not a delaware due to flaws. Breeding genetic components back into a line using out crossing is an acceptable breeding practice. Considering that Ellis's exact breeding program is not documented and crossing Delaware males back to NH hens is one way of improving the columbian like pattern we cannot say for sure where a Delaware really starts. With all the above I can accept anything as being called a delaware if it was built off the PBRxNH formula and in some fashion conforms to the SOP. I just accept that there are lots of flawed lines out there and only try to breed forward and improve towards standard.

You didn't understand my point. If a bird looks like a Columbian Rock, though sold as a Delaware, he is not suitable for breeding Delawares, period. Remember, I bred Delawares for 9 years (mine are all passed on except one now). I had no hatchery stock. Back then, when I was in the thick of it, other breeders are VERY finicky about their Delawares, even to the point of calling culls "Delaware crosses" because they do not want them propagated as Delawares. They are far too endangered to allow substandard birds who don't even look like the breed to be called by the name and the breed was far too important to just let that continue on. That's not a simple flaw.

If a bird has NO hackle or tail barring and, on top of that, has red leakage somewhere, that is far more than a simple flaw. He simply cannot be called a Delaware because he cannot be used to produce Delawares, especially if the hens are as substandard as he is.

This male here, you would call a Delaware. He looks like a Delaware, sure. But, let me tell you that he is a combination of three breeds. He is Delaware x (Blue Laced Red Wyandotte x Blue Ameraucana). He may look the part other than a stray red feather, and he sure looks more pure Delaware than many others are being sold as Delawares, however, there is no telling what the heck he would produce with all those genes floating around in his body. If I sold this male as a Delaware, I would be committing fraud, plain and simple. He isn't a Delaware with a "flaw", he's just not a Delaware. He's a complete mixed breed who later produced, with a splash Rock hen, a son who appears to be a Columbian Rock, solid black hackles and tail, so that one is even more mixed than the sire. But even my mixed breed cockerel pictured here looks much more like a pure Delaware than some others I've seen called Delawares. Without tail barring or barred hackles, how do you know it is not a Columbian Rock? You do not. That's my point. To be a Delaware, it must look like a Delaware.

 

[caychris]

You didn't understand my point. If a bird looks like a Columbian Rock, though sold as a Delaware, he is not suitable for breeding Delawares, period. Remember, I bred Delawares for 9 years (mine are all passed on except one now). I had no hatchery stock. Back then, when I was in the thick of it, other breeders are VERY finicky about their Delawares, even to the point of calling culls "Delaware crosses" because they do not want them propagated as Delawares. They are far too endangered to allow substandard birds who don't even look like the breed to be called by the name and the breed was far too important to just let that continue on. That's not a simple flaw.

If a bird has NO hackle or tail barring and, on top of that, has red leakage somewhere, that is far more than a simple flaw. He simply cannot be called a Delaware because he cannot be used to produce Delawares, especially if the hens are as substandard as he is.

This male here, you would call a Delaware. He looks like a Delaware, sure. But, let me tell you that he is a combination of three breeds. He is Delaware x (Blue Laced Red Wyandotte x Blue Ameraucana). He may look the part other than a stray red feather, and he sure looks more pure Delaware than many others are being sold as Delawares, however, there is no telling what the heck he would produce with all those genes floating around in his body. If I sold this male as a Delaware, I would be committing fraud, plain and simple. He isn't a Delaware with a "flaw", he's just not a Delaware. He's a complete mixed breed who later produced, with a splash Rock hen, a son who appears to be a Columbian Rock, solid black hackles and tail, so that one is even more mixed than the sire. But even my mixed breed cockerel pictured here looks much more like a pure Delaware than some others I've seen called Delawares. Without tail barring or barred hackles, how do you know it is not a Columbian Rock? You do not. That's my point. To be a Delaware, it must look like a Delaware.

My point was that for me personally Ive seen a lot of strange things crop up out of apparently well bred birds. We all know that a lot of Delawares today are nothing like they used to be or are supposed to be. But to some extent that is going to be true at any point in time of the breeds history. Perfection is rare. Every one has to start somewhere and out crossing to reintroduce lost genes is acceptable as long as what you do can be managed back down again to something that meets standard. Columbian Rocks and Delawares are superficially similar but there are differences (white vs grey underfluff for one) We do not know how Ellis got the Columbian like pattern to solidify in his lines. Its something many of us struggle with.

I do tend to agree that the 1st generation out crosses are not technically delawares any longer however that does not mean that their offspring can not be bred forward with delawares of more pure parentage to help influence portions of the delaware genepool. Everyone has to start somewhere and its breeding to the standard that counts. Not hwere you started. Though it alwasys helps to start with good stock its not always available. All in all Im not going to write of hatchery delawares as not delawares but Im likely not going to breed them as they have too many issues as a place to start but they may surprise you sometimes.

 

[speckledhen]

Aside from all that, and I understand what you're saying, some birds from the hatchery are simply just plain old mislabeled. We see it all the time in similar breeds. They label a Dominique a Barred Rock, or vice versa, and the feed store sells it as such-ignorance abounds in feed stores all over the country. Uninformed buyers get that, breed or sell it as such. They go around saying " my Delaware rooster" and it has no barring in hackles or tail. So, me, I would tell them it is not a Delaware. You can have White Rocks mixed with something else that have black in the tail and none in hackles, not a bit of Delaware in it and should I tell this person it's just a Delaware with a flaw? I once long ago actually saw a Welp ad online that said "Delaware/Columbian Rock". So, what were they selling? Did they even know?

Not the best breed to use as an example with all the controversy surrounding it, but I have a 6 yr old hen now that came from a Blue/Black/Splash Ameraucana flock out of a beautiful blue egg, hatched here. I saw a picture of the parent stock so yes, they were what the seller said they were, visually. Dad was Blue Ameraucana, mom was Black Ameraucana or a Blue, not really sure which, there were both. My hen has no beard, lays a brown egg and has Sumatra body type and spurs. Is she an Ameraucana? Well, some would say she is. But, I won't say that. She has obvious Sumatra genes that popped up suddenly from an unauthorized breeding generations back (male was purchased by the person who sent me the eggs from a breeder who used to raise Blue Sumatra-mystery solved). She isn't just an Ameraucana with a flaw. And if I posted my "Black Ameraucana" hen, you can be sure I'd be corrected so fast my head would spin, LOL.

Anyway, I understand faults. My breeder rooster was from good lines, fine heritage stock, some of the best in the country, but he had flaws. However, if I see zero barring in the tail and none in hackles, at best, IMO as a former breeder of Delawares, it is only a Delaware cross, especially if I don't know where it came from to verify parentage. JMHO.

 

[caychris]

Delawares who lack neck barring is of less concern to me than the solid black tail but both are really nearly as dire for me as shape and other things that are dead give aways.

For me the barring gene on a white bird can sometimes be masked for a lack of black. The genes for the columbian pattern come from the mothers so strong columbian patterning is not easy to keep going.

Many of Kathy Bonhams birds carry way too much color (to be Delawares according to their visual inspection) but we are only talking five to eight in some case generations away from the initial cross. Getting the right balance of genes for the "paint" is much harder than it looks. Barring "dilutes" for lack of a better term as the black is pushed further and further off the bird (its pretty hard to tell a white barred bird from a white non barred bird) The columbian like pattern genes came from the mothers side barring from the fathers. Silver gene (producing the mostly white bird) is generally attributed to the mother but hidden or supressed in either of the parent stock quite easily. Delawares are a very difficult set of genes and color fixers to work with.
They start from "sports" in the initial cross. Landing a near perfect set of genes to address all the color issues with such sex linked genes as barring and in this case those for the columbian pattern in the right balance to be paired together and produce a Delaware is actually pretty amazing. So I cut some slack and I understand needing to recover lost genes with out crossing. Which presents its new problems. There are obviously Delawares out there with lots of "other stuff" hanging on and lets not even get into the mess that the PBR gene pool is. All you can do is work with the birds you have. Attempt to move towards standard. Some starting points may be near impossible but breeding is about learning to do what you need to do to get the result you want. Even then the variation you can get even in "pure" bred birds is enough to drive you crazy. Reading about breeding and actual breeding are often vastly different.

The growth pattern and nature of birds genetics make it easy to goof up and make mistakes and the mistakes can often be masked for generations. With as difficult a paint pattern as this is and as many many birds that deviate from standard type. Im going to simply accept it may be an attempt at a delaware even with the right gene pool but its going to be a lot of work to bring it to standard. I simply classify them as gradations away from standard and try to judge if I can or could ,or want to try, make progress from this bird. Not trying to label it Is or is not a delaware. Just my personal opinion.

 

[speckledhen]

Delawares who lack neck barring is of less concern to me than the solid black tail but both are really nearly as dire for me as shape and other things that are dead give aways.

For me the barring gene on a white bird can sometimes be masked for a lack of black. The genes for the columbian pattern come from the mothers so strong columbian patterning is not easy to keep going.

Many of Kathy Bonhams birds carry way too much color (to be Delawares according to their visual inspection) but we are only talking five to eight in some case generations away from the initial cross. Getting the right balance of genes for the "paint" is much harder than it looks. Barring "dilutes" for lack of a better term as the black is pushed further and further off the bird (its pretty hard to tell a white barred bird from a white non barred bird) The columbian like pattern genes came from the mothers side barring from the fathers. Silver gene (producing the mostly white bird) is generally attributed to the mother but hidden or supressed in either of the parent stock quite easily. Delawares are a very difficult set of genes and color fixers to work with.
They start from "sports" in the initial cross. Landing a near perfect set of genes to address all the color issues with such sex linked genes as barring and in this case those for the columbian pattern in the right balance to be paired together and produce a Delaware is actually pretty amazing. So I cut some slack and I understand needing to recover lost genes with out crossing. Which presents its new problems. There are obviously Delawares out there with lots of "other stuff" hanging on and lets not even get into the mess that the PBR gene pool is. All you can do is work with the birds you have. Attempt to move towards standard. Some starting points may be near impossible but breeding is about learning to do what you need to do to get the result you want. Even then the variation you can get even in "pure" bred birds is enough to drive you crazy. Reading about breeding and actual breeding are often vastly different.

The growth pattern and nature of birds genetics make it easy to goof up and make mistakes and the mistakes can often be masked for generations. With as difficult a paint pattern as this is and as many many birds that deviate from standard type. Im going to simply accept it may be an attempt at a delaware even with the right gene pool but its going to be a lot of work to bring it to standard. I simply classify them as gradations away from standard and try to judge if I can or could ,or want to try, make progress from this bird. Not trying to label it Is or is not a delaware. Just my personal opinion.

The main difficulty in this breed is the difference in male and female color pattern. You truly must have a male and female line to achieve the best of both sexes. I did not have the room nor the inclination to do so. My own rooster, with his barred, but darker barred than most, tail, was better for producing pullets than cockerels, though he did produce some fine sons with great coloring (thankfully, there are always two parents in the mix). Because of his darker coloring in the tail, he produced some ,males that were too dark in both hackles and tail, but all had some semblance of barring. That gene has to pass on. So, yes, it is a VERY difficult breed to get right, however, it is also still highly endangered and messed up by hatcheries as well. All that together is why Delaware breeders are quick to refuse to label birds without Delaware coloring a Delaware. They feel it does a disservice to the breed and only serves to push it further back toward extinction.

Kathy had a decent thing going but I feel it needed a few more concentrated culling years. It was a huge undertaking, to her credit, and not many would have taken on that responsibility, so I thank her for her efforts.

My first love is the Barred Plymouth Rock and I concentrate on those these days, but my Delawares were great birds, great layers and early layers at that. My last Delaware hen is now going on 8 years old and is currently laying but I will not have anymore after she's gone.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion, Chris. See you around!

 

[NickyPick]

I was wondering if I could ask a delaware chick question. I got my trio for eggs and pets and then someone approached me about getting a few of my birds chicks and I agreed so I could see what their chick would look like. Well out of 11 chicks 10 are beautiful delawares but 1 chick was born with a red tint to its feathers. It looks just like a delaware just red. Is this normal? I am not sure what to do. Do I call it a red delaware? I would greatly appreciate any advise please.

That looks a lot like my New Hampshire chicks. Could be a cross, or she will get more solid red as she grows.

 

[caychris]

The main difficulty in this breed is the difference in male and female color pattern. You truly must have a male and female line to achieve the best of both sexes. I did not have the room nor the inclination to do so. My own rooster, with his barred, but darker barred than most, tail, was better for producing pullets than cockerels, though he did produce some fine sons with great coloring (thankfully, there are always two parents in the mix). Because of his darker coloring in the tail, he produced some ,males that were too dark in both hackles and tail, but all had some semblance of barring. That gene has to pass on. So, yes, it is a VERY difficult breed to get right, however, it is also still highly endangered and messed up by hatcheries as well. All that together is why Delaware breeders are quick to refuse to label birds without Delaware coloring a Delaware. They feel it does a disservice to the breed and only serves to push it further back toward extinction.

Kathy had a decent thing going but I feel it needed a few more concentrated culling years. It was a huge undertaking, to her credit, and not many would have taken on that responsibility, so I thank her for her efforts.

My first love is the Barred Plymouth Rock and I concentrate on those these days, but my Delawares were great birds, great layers and early layers at that. My last Delaware hen is now going on 8 years old and is currently laying but I will not have anymore after she's gone.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion, Chris. See you around!

I can appreciate that. The 2 lines thing is the result of Sexual Dimorphism primarily dealing with the barring (a sex linked genes) and the genes for the columbian pattern which are only inherited from the mother in the initial cross. Not to mention Silver and other factors hidden by the PBR genes