Desperately need coop advice

[Denisea3465]

(see attached sketch - hopefully it is sufficient. Unfortunately I can't get any good pictures to show the whole layout)

We have a large workshop with a smaller (about 90ft2) separate area that has been anything from a chicken coop to a storage shed to a jail cell (yep!). It has a fireplace, a large window, and a half wall that has a cutout where egg nests were at one time. It has a thick cement floor and heavy wood log-type walls.

We have 12 chickens. I have built and rebuilt this coop so many times and nothing works. It is annoying to clean, as there are two large steps up and a 5" ledge on the inside so you can't just open the door and sweep everything out towards the door.

I can't figure out how to put the roost poles/boards up because they end up either too close to the wall behind and it gets all poopy and gross, or they are too close together and they poop on each other. I REALLY want to get a poop board in there somehow but haven't been able to make it work because apparently I am dumb.

I have tried and given up many times to get the water and food in there but on top of everything, the floor is really sloped and the water just spills out all the time so I had to build crazy odd bases just to get them level.

The area is quite small and getting out through the window, as well as getting up into the nest boxes, has been an issue for the chickens. The egg collecting hatch is about 3 feet off the floor so that is how high I built the egg boxes, but the ladder to get them up there was always in the way of the floor and made it even harder to clean. The window is about 4.5 ft off the ground (their way out of the coop) and even harder to get them up and out of without craziness. To top it all off, they like to sit on the window sill and it got crazy poopy inside there and down the wall beneath it. I have considered cutting through the wall to put an exit at floor level but the wall is about 11" thick and my husband hates the idea.

I should also mention we live in an area with extremely cold winters and I would LOVE to have a pvc pipe/watering nipples system but I don't see how that would be possible when everything freezes.

Is this a lost cause? I have run out of ideas. My idea coop has:

1) a poop board for easy cleaning
2) roost pole/s for 12 chickens
3) ladder/s that allow the chickens to easily get where they need to go
4) open enough for me to walk in and clean without having to climb under and around all the roost poles and ladders
5) clean feed and water area that is easy to get to, ideally just inside the double-doors to the coop area
6) clean window and sill area

Any chicken coop experts out there care to have a whack at it? It would be greatly appreciated. My brain hurts from all the googling and I am still stuck without a solution. Thank you!

 

[perkolator]

Do you have any pics of the actual setup to share? I know it would help me give better advice

Because someone will mention it - is the window the only ventilation for this space aside from whatever air might come from the fireplace? Is there any outdoor run space?

For 12 chickens you only really need one long roost bar, at least that's been my experience as mine always want to cram together on just one long bar; for 12 you'd only need like one 8-10ft roost bar

Roost bars can easily be made as a hinged bar that can be flipped up out of the way, or a simple removable bar to take out when doing maintenance. With an ~8ft roost, this could leave you plenty of room on the double-door side for you to stand inside; could also place your feeder/waterer in this location -- hanging versions will help with the mentioned uneven floor issue.

As for the window, I don't really see any issues with the height off the ground. Chickens can easily jump, so no real need for a formal ladder to get up/down, just a few bars on something that's more vertical than horizontal - and they don't even need to be immediately in front of the window, they can be angled or off to the side, etc. I recently eliminated my long ramp going to my coop, and installed some tree branches for an informal ladder that's off to the side - opened up a ton more space without the ramp and it almost seems easier and more natural for them to get up/down.

The window area is likely poopy from the chickens hanging out in that space and if I were to take a guess as to why there specifically - it's the only window/ventilation spot in the room; they want fresh air and a view! If the wood log-type walls are where the poopy window is located, you may consider covering over the immediate area with some sheet material so there's less texture to catch poop and it's more easy to clean.

 

[saysfaa]

It is not a lost cause, assuming it has enough ventilation (I can't see that one way or the other from the floor plan.)

One roost, 12" from the back wall - from the wall with the window to just before the fireplace. Make it 5' from the floor so it is higher than the window and the nests. To get fewer legs - hang it from the ceiling, if possible. Or use heavier posts and beams so you can use fewer of them.

Below the roost, put the poop board. Make it 2' to 3' wide and 12" below the roost. 1x3 or 1x4 on end as a rim around the poop board works well. Hm, it works well for 5 chickens. I scoop the poops, that might get a bit much for 12 chickens. Some people prefer to scrap the poop board rather than scoop it and that might have to do with how many chickens they have. So, you might not want the rim.

With the poop board taking about half the poops, deep bedding on the floor pretty much disappears the rest. They have been using it for a year without me taking anything out and I can't tell the poop residue is there expect the odd fresh cecal poop. I've added a LOT - lawn bags full of fresh bedding. I use mostly maple leaves so they break down to tiny bits too. I'm not sure it is the best solution to leave it that long but it still seems clean. It is about 10 inches deep - it is normally about 12 inches deep but I stopped adding bags of leaves thinking I will clean it out just to see what it is like all the way down. And because the garden could use the compost. Sorry for the rabbit trail.

To get back on track, working around the posts or making them easy to disassemble for cleaning might be more doable if you used deep bedding (that is the dry, noncomposting version of putting several to many inches of pine shavings or pine straw or coffee grounds or maple leaves or whatever you use on the floor and leaving it there long term.)

My roost is about 5' high. The chickens usually hop down to the poop board rim. I put a stair rail on it to be more comfortable for them - I found it in a scrap bin at an estate sale; if I had to buy something, I'd use a 2x4 with the edges rounded or something similar. Then they hop/fly down to the floor - with the bedding that deep and resilient, I am not very worried about arthritis later. Or to a step thing - it takes up less floor space than a ladder. The step thing could be anything from a stump to a table.

Can you hang the food and water to solve the sloping floor issue?

If these are things you have tried, what about them worked or didn't work?

 

[Denisea3465]

Thank you so much for taking the time for writing such thoughtful suggestions!

I should have mentioned about ventilation- it is no problem there. While the building is well built, the stairs and second floor create a major upwards airflow and it never gets overly warm in there. On the contrary, I feel like we have to work a little harder than we should to keep it warm in the winter.

Also just to clarify, the window has two panes about 2’ wide and 4’ tall each, each divided into 3 sections. The bottom right section, we removed and replaced with a flap for them to go in and out.

It connects outside to a fully enclosed run about 7’x11’ which has the main chicken flap door, and leads to an “open” run enclosed with just a light, movable fencing that goes all over our property. In all I would guess they have about 1600ft2 of outdoor run that is filled with trees and bush cover and amongst our beehives.

As for the roost and poop board, when I had one single roost bar it seemed to cause issues like they were having trouble getting up if they weren’t scooting down towards the fireplace side. I ended up with three ladders for them to climb up to give them options which I felt were too steep and were horrible for cleaning around. I bet the poop board would help with that though that would give him something else to fly up and get onto. Do you make the pop board from plywood? Does it have to be covered with something waterproof? Sweet PDZ isn’ta thing here (we live in Sweden) so I am unsure how to do that.

We tried the deep litter method but because the floor is cement it felt really wrong. It turned into 6” plus thick cement-like blocks on the floor that were darn near impossible to get out when cleaning? Is this something that only works on dirt flooring? Did I use the wrong bedding material (pine shavings)? I think the constantly leaking waterers contributed a lot to that problem. I didn’t even realized they were leaking for a long time.

I am going out today to work on it and spent hours last night pouring over the pics of others’ pics for inspiration. I will try to get some pictures for showing how it is. It makes me sad seeing how dingy and unwieldy it is compared to how beautiful and functional all you create and creative people have built your coops!

Thank you so much again for taking the time to help!!

 

[saysfaa]

... I bet the poop board would help with that though that would give him something else to fly up and get onto. Do you make the pop board from plywood? Does it have to be covered with something waterproof? Sweet PDZ isn’ta thing here (we live in Sweden) so I am unsure how to do that.

We tried the deep litter method but because the floor is cement it felt really wrong. It turned into 6” plus thick cement-like blocks on the floor that were darn near impossible to get out when cleaning? Is this something that only works on dirt flooring? Did I use the wrong bedding material (pine shavings)? I think the constantly leaking waterers contributed a lot to that problem. I didn’t even realized they were leaking for a long time. ...
Thank you so much again for taking the time to help!!

I bet so too.
Yes, we used thin plywood. Some people put a sheet of flooring on it; some paint it. I painted mine. Sand works well if you want to scoop rather than scrape. Coffee grounds work well also, if you have a source - sometimes coffee houses will save them for people.

No, deep bedding works on a solid floor. It works with pine shavings. I'm sure it caked up like that because of the leak. It needs to be dry. It also helps to scatter a handful of seeds so the chickens will turn it over.

There is a deep litter version that is not dry. That way will essentially be a composting system. It works best on a dirt floor because the dirt has the micro organisms needed and it makes managing the amount of moisture easier. It can be done inside - you would have to add inoculant (commercial packet or a shovel of compost from a healthy compost pile), water it as needed, have a mix of bedding, and scatter a little feed so they scratch through it. Shavings alone don't work very well - they don't break down fast enough.

In either system, a mix of textures of bedding work best - some birch leaves, some twigs, some wood chips, some grass clippings, some stalks of vegetables or weeds, and so on. Some pine shavings - less of them in the wet system but some are good. This mix helps keep it from matting.

You are welcome. I didn't discover any of this - I was helped by many others here.

 

[saysfaa]

This might help: https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/using-deep-bedding-in-a-small-coop.76343/

Oh, and I forgot shredded paper as litter/bedding in either system. https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...or-coop-litter-as-good-as-wood-chips.1503415/

There are other options too.

 

[NatJ]

getting out through the window, as well as getting up into the nest boxes, has been an issue for the chickens. The egg collecting hatch is about 3 feet off the floor so that is how high I built the egg boxes, but the ladder to get them up there was always in the way of the floor and made it even harder to clean. The window is about 4.5 ft off the ground (their way out of the coop) and even harder to get them up and out of without craziness.

Have you tried putting a shelf by the window and nestboxes, and skipping the ladder? That could let them fly up, land on the shelf and fold their wings, and then step gently into the nestboxes or through the window.

 

[3KillerBs]

We tried the deep litter method but because the floor is cement it felt really wrong. It turned into 6” plus thick cement-like blocks on the floor that were darn near impossible to get out when cleaning? Is this something that only works on dirt flooring? Did I use the wrong bedding material (pine shavings)? I think the constantly leaking waterers contributed a lot to that problem. I didn’t even realized they were leaking for a long time.

Where, in general, are you? Climate matters. If you put your location into your profile it makes it easier for people to give better-targeted advice.

You're gotten good advice in re: your general setup here, so I'm just going to add to 2 points.

First, about Deep Bedding and the common causes for it failing. Let's start with the difference between Deep Bedding and Deep Litter:

​

Deep Bedding: A dry, non-composting system where you keep adding bedding to the coop as it becomes soiled -- managing it by turning it as necessary (or getting the chickens to turn it for you) -- and clean it out only infrequently when the bedding has become both thoroughly soiled and piled up to the point of not being able to add more. Usually used above a floor in the coop but *can* be done in a covered run over dirt in a favorable climate.​

​

Deep Litter: A moist (not wet, moist), system where the lower layers of material are actively composting while new, dry material is continually added to the top. *Can* be done on any floor surface but is most readily accomplished on a dirt floor because the dirt will seed the material with the beneficial composting organisms.​

You *can* use Deep Litter in an enclosed coop with a floor, but it's more difficult and, if you're successful, the composting action can eat the structural wood too. So, best to use Deep Bedding for this kind of setup.

The most common reason for the failure of Deep Bedding is an insufficient volume of bedding for the number of chickens and volume of the space. You say that you have 90 square feet and 12 chickens, so that *ought* to be sufficient space for a good volume of litter.

How deep a bed did you start with? How often did you add additional bedding?

Also, how did you maintain your bedding? Did you stir it up with a fork from time to time? Throw scratch to encourage the chickens to stir it for you?

The main caking problems tend to occur under the roost and even the best-managed systems get them from time to time, especially in the winter when nights are long. You can break them up with the fork and/or pile extra bedding under the roost.

The second most common problem is failure to keep the bedding dry. Since you had leaking waterers, that was probably a major contributor to the problem. Additionally, though you said that you had adequate ventilation, I wonder if you *really* do, because a very well ventilated coop with Deep Bedding will dry out the water from minor waterer leaks in fairly short order.

The usual guideline is a minimum of 1 square foot of ventilation per adult, standard-size hen. How many square feet of ventilation do you actually have in the chickens' area -- not counting other parts of the structure?

IMO, the best preventative for this problem is to get the water out of the coop. You said that there was a fully enclosed run, right? That's where I'd put the feed and water if at all possible.

The third most common problem people have reported is inadequate ventilation -- which cycles back to the second problem because inadequate ventilation prevents the poop from drying out rapidly and allows moisture to build up.

I have tried and given up many times to get the water and food in there but on top of everything, the floor is really sloped and the water just spills out all the time so I had to build crazy odd bases just to get them level.

To keep feeders and open waterers level, hang them if at all possible. Or use horizontal nipples, which don't leak when tilted. Bonus -- horizontal nipple waterers are compatible with deicers.

A honest question, not meant to be in any way offensive, but given that this setup is giving you so many headaches, causing so many problems and making you do so much extra work in an awkward environment that turns minor maintenance into major chores, thus reducing your joy in your flock ...

Is there a particular reason that you don't want to build a new structure that's actually meant to accommodate chickens and designed to make chicken-keeping chores easy?

 

[Egg Blues]

It's hard to sweep up stairs. Is it possible to build and install a ramp over them, one that could protect them from the flat shovel used to scoop out the litter? You could sweep over the ramp, but, if you used litter, you could also push a scoop shovel over it.

Barring this, I'd be tempted to lay down one or more tarps on the floor which I could sort of roll up and take outside to be hosed off. Not ideal, perhaps, but better than trying to sweep up the stairs!

I'm not a fan of having to walk on deep litter. It's one thing to have the chooks walking on it...quite another to have me in it!

 

[3KillerBs]

I'm not a fan of having to walk on deep litter. It's one thing to have the chooks walking on it...quite another to have me in it!

This is why muck boots.