Difference between Erminette Breed and Erminette Color?

[Spangled]

Sand Hill Preservation -- from catalog: "Erminettes (AMB): Our now deceased friend, Ron Nelson, discovered this old breed some years back while travelling through Wisconsin. He obtained some hatching eggs and spent many years trying to get them back to their original status. Ron passed away a few years ago and his flock was maintained by a friend, Josh Miller, in a nearby town. Josh gave me a call last summer and indicated that because of numerous circumstances he could no longer maintain them. I was very impressed with them when we visited Ron the year before he died, but he just wasn't comfortable in parting with them at that time. Ron was a perfectionist. After Josh called, Linda and I went on a long day trip and brought back 22 birds. Many of them were from Ron's pens. We are hopeful to start offering them either late in 2014 or take orders for 2015. The internet is full of incorrect pictures so please use discretion. There is an erminette color and an Erminette breed. They are basically a white chicken with either black or orange flecks in the body feathers. They are a large breed that lays a pale brown egg, not totally perfected, but historical. They are excellent foragers. At this time we are only interested in placing them with serious folks who want to perpetuate the breed. Send a letter of interest and when the chicks become available we will share. We are planning to charge $5.00 per chick. We will be saving all of the chicks from the first part of the season and hope to have some by July 1. (SOLD OUT THROUGH 7/22/14)" Source: sandhillpreservation.com/chickens.html

Can anyone please tell me the difference between the "breed" erminette and the "color" erminette?

Also, has anyone ever heard that the Erminette breed can have orange flecks in the body feathers? Really? This is the first I've heard this and would be interested in more information. Does anyone yet have pics of the chick down?

I know Hutt published something about the "color" erminette that is only available if I have the dollars, so I can't read it. But Glenn Drown is saying that there is an Erminette "Breed" which sounds like it is different from the Ereminette "color." And he's saying that the internet is full of incorrect pictures, which, to me, means that there's more to the story than what is currently on the internet.

Also referencing this thread: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/876423/what-breed-am-i

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

The Erminette is a breed that has an interesting and confusing history to say the least. Some people claim that the Erminette looks like an Ancona, others say they looked like a Delaware. According the poultry history buffs as well as the world's leading poultry history guru Craig Russell of Pennsylvania, the Erminette was originally white with random (preferably solid), black feathers. Here is a picture of an Erminette from the early 1920's.



By the 1950's-1960's the breed was considered extinct, but was assumed that the breed was in existance somewhere in the hands of a family that was "under the radar". Ron Nelson had one of the largest rare breed flocks in existence in the nation and was always eager to hunt down important flocks. He was driving in southern WI one day and happened to notice a flock of chickens that looked like the old "extinct" Erminettes roaming the farm along the country road he was traveling on. He stopped, went to the home and was met by an elderly woman. Upon asking about the birds, she shared that they were Erminettes and once belonged to her grandfather, who passed the flock to her father, who in turn passed the flock to her. He took home some eggs to hatch, and so started the restoration of the Erminette.

Ron was a perfectionist, and therefore refused to release these birds to anyone until he had bred them to their historical glory. He did bring in some Black Orpington blood to boost size and reduce inbreeding. He also experimented with creating a Red version of the Erminette by outcrossing to Buff Orpington. Unfortuneately, Ron passed away before sharing these birds with anyone, and his sister sold off his entire flock without getting Ron's rare collection in the hands of individuals who would maintain them. Many of his rarest breeds were lost entirely! However, it was later found out that a man who worked for Ron (Josh) had managed to obtain some of these birds from Ron. When he was no longer able to take care of them he contacted Glenn to make sure the birds weren't lost completely. Glenn obtained both the Black and Red varieties of the Erminette. Keep in mind, the traditional type was the Black version. However, I have seen both of these varieties in person at Glenn's place when I was working with him on the Iowa Blue, and they are stunning birds!

Hope that helps clear up some of the misconception on the breed.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

If you decide to purchase any and obtain some chicks, you'll have to post some pics of them.

 

[antheat]

The chicks are lovely and vigorous. I will post pics over the weekend.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Please do that. Will you post pics of both colors? I saw them as adults at Glenn's place, but have yet to see the chicks. How many did you obtain and did you get them from Sandhill?

 

[Chris09]

• Spangled, If what sandhill is selling are true genetic erminette (by color) then when you breed them together they shouldn't breed true.
• Example -- Erminette x Erminette = Solid Black, Solid White and Erminette.
• Now if you breed "Erminette" x "Erminette" and you get 100% "Erminette" then there not a true Erminette and most likely a fowl with the same pattern as seen on a Exchequer.

I'll see what I can find on this but you may want to track down tadkerson or nicalandia and see what they has to say about it.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Chris, you're absolutely right, they should not breed true. Glen did share with me that he only took the adults out of the group that had the "erminette" coloration but that there were some that were solid white and some that were solid colored as well. But, as you've stated correctly, only breeding two erminettes together will ultimately determine if this is a true breeding erminette or just a version of the exchequer pattern. I haven't seen any of the chicks myself nor have I been out to see Glen's flocks since last spring......

Chris, I've read some of your other posts (much to my satisfaction I might ad!). What can you dig up from a historical perspective on the original Erminettes? Do you have any pictures besides the one I was able to locate and posted above? Any additional articles about the breed from some of the older poultry publications?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Chris, help me out here on something. I was under the impression from older writting concerning a true breeding flock of erminettes that if you bred a black erminette to a white erminette that you'd obtain 100% erminette colored offspring. Is this validated historically? It sounds like it operates similarly to the blue gene; no blue gene/no erminette gene you get a solid black bird. 1 blue gene/erminette gene you get a blue or erminette colored bird respectively. 2 blue/erminette genes you get a splash/white bird respectively.

Can you validate or dispell this understanding?

 

[nicalandia]

Chris, help me out here on something. I was under the impression from older writting concerning a true breeding flock of erminettes that if you bred a black erminette to a white erminette that you'd obtain 100% erminette colored offspring. Is this validated historically? It sounds like it operates similarly to the blue gene; no blue gene/no erminette gene you get a solid black bird. 1 blue gene/erminette gene you get a blue or erminette colored bird respectively. 2 blue/erminette genes you get a splash/white bird respectively.

Can you validate or dispell this understanding?

that is correct, if you breed a Black sport of Erminette to a White sport Erminette will give you 100% Erminette, Erminette is basically a Dominant whie bird with only one copy of dominant white, and since dominant white like 90% of all dominant gene is only Incompletely dominant, meaning that it will not turn all and every feather white, now this effect of white background with black spots can be enhanced by only breeding the birds that show the most black spots,


so say if you breed a Black leghorn to a White leghorn most birds will show some black on them but some will be almost all white(I know this for experience) so breed the ones that show more black on them back to black and this will produce even more birds with Erminett pattern

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Thank you for the clearification Nicalandia. That's what I thought was going on genetically, it's good to hear a confirmation on that.