Differences EE, Ameraucana, & Araucana * Pls post pics*

[FowlStuff]

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Saying "This bird is an Aracauna" isn't saying "This bird has the genetics of an aracauna, comes from a long line of aracaunas, and will produce aracaunas" - its saying "This bird fits the breed description of an Aracauna".
...

Right. It is all about phenotype when it comes to exhibition poultry and if it fits their Standards, that is what it is according to the APA/ABA.
I'm not big into showing and as a breeder I understand it is still best to get the proper genotype to achieve consistent phenotype.

 

[CrazyTalk]

I'm not big into showing and as a breeder I understand it is still best to get the proper genotype to achieve consistent phenotype.

Oh, of course. Outcrossing should only be done with very clear goals, and should always be considered carefully. Its not something to be done unless you really know what you're doing.

That being said - these sort of threads drive me nuts. There is no such thing as a "True" ameracauna, or aracauna, or any other breed. Where you got your birds doesn't matter, who you bought them from doesn't matter, and what their genetic heritage is doesn't matter.

Every one of these threads devolves into "if you bought it from a hatchery...", or "if you bought it from a feedstore...." , etc, and that's absolute nonsense. It doesn't matter if you found the bird for $.99 down at Tractor Supply in the Cornish Cross bin, if the color is right, and the comb is right and the legs are right, its an ameracauna. And it doesn't matter if you spent $100 a chick from a fancy breeder who has pedigrees of all his birds back to the original group, if its not an approved color, its an easter egger.

I have seen people with gorgeous Brown Red ameracaunas selling chicks for $2 a piece as easter eggers because their birds had hatchery origins, and I've seen people selling birds that don't even come close to any of the accepted colors for $30 a chick because they originally got the birds from rarebreeds or somewhere like that, but they didn't do anything to keep selecting for proper color. All of the nonsense about origins and "true" birds and all that does nothing but harm the breeds.

If people are going to keep and sell birds, they should know how birds are classified, and how they are judged.

 

[FowlStuff]

Oh, of course. Outcrossing should only be done with very clear goals, and should always be considered carefully. Its not something to be done unless you really know what you're doing.

That being said - these sort of threads drive me nuts. There is no such thing as a "True" ameracauna, or aracauna, or any other breed. Where you got your birds doesn't matter, who you bought them from doesn't matter, and what their genetic heritage is doesn't matter.

Every one of these threads devolves into "if you bought it from a hatchery...", or "if you bought it from a feedstore...." , etc, and that's absolute nonsense. It doesn't matter if you found the bird for $.99 down at Tractor Supply in the Cornish Cross bin, if the color is right, and the comb is right and the legs are right, its an ameracauna. And it doesn't matter if you spent $100 a chick from a fancy breeder who has pedigrees of all his birds back to the original group, if its not an approved color, its an easter egger.

I have seen people with gorgeous Brown Red ameracaunas selling chicks for $2 a piece as easter eggers because their birds had hatchery origins, and I've seen people selling birds that don't even come close to any of the accepted colors for $30 a chick because they originally got the birds from rarebreeds or somewhere like that, but they didn't do anything to keep selecting for proper color. All of the nonsense about origins and "true" birds and all that does nothing but harm the breeds.

If people are going to keep and sell birds, they should know how birds are classified, and how they are judged.

We aren't going to agree on everything, but I'll agree with much of what you say when talking about APA/ABA Standard poultry. As I said earlier, for them (APA/ABA/exhibitors), if is all about phenotype. Birds are NOT judged on genotype.
I breed Ameraucanas as "true" as they come according to genotype that are proved in phenotype starting as day-old chicks.

 

[junebuggena]

Oh, of course. Outcrossing should only be done with very clear goals, and should always be considered carefully. Its not something to be done unless you really know what you're doing.

That being said - these sort of threads drive me nuts. There is no such thing as a "True" ameracauna, or aracauna, or any other breed. Where you got your birds doesn't matter, who you bought them from doesn't matter, and what their genetic heritage is doesn't matter.

Every one of these threads devolves into "if you bought it from a hatchery...", or "if you bought it from a feedstore...." , etc, and that's absolute nonsense. It doesn't matter if you found the bird for $.99 down at Tractor Supply in the Cornish Cross bin, if the color is right, and the comb is right and the legs are right, its an ameracauna. And it doesn't matter if you spent $100 a chick from a fancy breeder who has pedigrees of all his birds back to the original group, if its not an approved color, its an easter egger.

I have seen people with gorgeous Brown Red ameracaunas selling chicks for $2 a piece as easter eggers because their birds had hatchery origins, and I've seen people selling birds that don't even come close to any of the accepted colors for $30 a chick because they originally got the birds from rarebreeds or somewhere like that, but they didn't do anything to keep selecting for proper color. All of the nonsense about origins and "true" birds and all that does nothing but harm the breeds.

If people are going to keep and sell birds, they should know how birds are classified, and how they are judged.

I can honestly say that I've never seen an actual Brown Red, hatchery sourced Easter Egger. It's a pretty rare coloring, even for 'pure' Ameraucana. Most don't even know what Brown Red coloring is (it's not gold and black partridge). And hatchery birds almost never have the right skin color either. Another reason why those hatchery birds aren't considered Ameraucana is that they don't breed true, at all. Is it possible to get an Ameraucana that meets the breed standard from a hatchery? Sure. But you've got better odds of winning the lottery.

 

[CrazyTalk]

We aren't going to agree on everything, but I'll agree with much of what you say when talking about APA/ABA Standard poultry. As I said earlier, for them (APA/ABA/exhibitors), if is all about phenotype. Birds are NOT judged on genotype.
I breed Ameraucanas as "true" as they come according to genotype that are proved in phenotype starting as day-old chicks.

This is exactly what I'm talking about though - the 'true' isn't what's important here, its you continually selecting for a specific phenotype. Most people think that if you take any two ameracauna and breed them together, you get an ameracauna, and that's not the case - its only an ameracauna if it meets the breed standard, is an accepted color, etc.

Is it possible to get an Ameraucana that meets the breed standard from a hatchery? Sure. But you've got better odds of winning the lottery.

Nonsense. The ameracauna phenotype isn't a complicated one , and none of the traits are actually rare- its basically blue/black legs, white skin, muff, beard, pea comb, and a correct color. Finding birds with those traits is not difficult, and producing birds with that phenotype from readily available 'easter eggers' is even easier. Considering that the breed was essentially just an Americanized araucana, there's no special genetics to save here (like with Cemanis, etc).

Frankly, I've seen an awful lot of flocks that were originally hatchery sourced that have birds that are close to standard, and very few birds sold as "true" that are close. Generally when I see "True Ameracauna" its a sign that the person doesn't know how chicken classification works, and they aren't properly selecting for phenotype. Its generally a sign that you're going to spend too much money for a bunch of 'eggers.

 

[FowlStuff]

This is exactly what I'm talking about though - the 'true' isn't what's important here, its you continually selecting for a specific phenotype. Most people think that if you take any two ameracauna and breed them together, you get an ameracauna, and that's not the case - its only an ameracauna if it meets the breed standard, is an accepted color, etc.
...
Frankly, I've seen an awful lot of flocks that were originally hatchery sourced that have birds that are close to standard, and very few birds sold as "true" that are close. Generally when I see "True Ameracauna" its a sign that the person doesn't know how chicken classification works, and they aren't properly selecting for phenotype. Its generally a sign that you're going to spend too much money for a bunch of 'eggers.

I've been breeding them for over 30 years and when I breed two of my Ameraucanas, of the same variety, I get Ameraucanas. Certainly mutations can happen and I'm not shy about claiming there are exceptions to every rule. I also understand that someone can buy a pair of birds that meet the Standard and can produce chicks that don't, because the parents aren't "pure" enough. But, when you breed from an established line/strain, like mine, you can know what to expect. Even crossing two established lines can produce nonstandard birds.
True Ameraucanas and Araucanas were both bred to the Standard from mongrel birds. Every breed of anything was bred up to be that breed thru selection. Education is key to help make sure both newbies and old time fanciers aren't fleeced.
Also don't get too hung up on the idea that poultry is only judged by phenotype according to the APA/ABA at their sanctioned meets. Those meets only last a day or two. I'm not a member of either organization and am only under their rules when exhibiting. I'm a breeder and my Ameraucanas are true Ameraucanas because of their genotype 100% of the time.

 

[Selsley]

The British Araucana Tailed or Rumpless

Breed Standards...


TAILED ARAUCANA

LARGE FOWL

Origin: Chile

Classification: Light, Soft Feather

Egg Colour: Blue or green

When the Spaniards arrived in South America, bringing with them the light Mediterranean breeds, they found that the indigenous Indians had domestic fowl which soon cross-bred with the incomers. Notable for their fierce resistance to the Spaniards, however, were the Indians of the Arauca province of northern Chile who were never conquered. The name Araucana for the breed is derived therefore from that part of the world where the South American and European fowls had the least opportunity to interbreed.
The Araucana breed standard in the British Isles is generally as envisaged by George Malcolm who created the true-breeding lavender Araucana, among other colours, in Scotland during the 1930’s. Araucanas are prolific layers of strong-shelled eggs, blue or green eggs having been reported from South America from the mid-sixteenth century onwards. These are unique in that their colour permeates throughout the shell.

General Characteristics:

Male:

Carriage: Alert and active

Type: Body long and deep, free from heaviness. Firm in handling. Back moderately long, horizontal. Wings large and strong. Tail well developed with full sickles carried at an angle of 45 degrees.

Head: Moderately small. Beak strong and stout. Eyes bold. Comb small pea. Face covered with thick muffling and ear muffs abundant. Crest compact, carried well back from eyes. Ear-lobes moderately small and concealed by muffling. Wattles absent.

Neck: Of medium length, abundantly furnished with hackle feathers.

Legs and feet: Medium length, strong and well apart. Shanks free from feathers. Toes, four, straight and well spread.

Female:

The general characteristics are similar to those of the male, allowing for the natural sexual differences. Comb pea.

Colour

The Lavender
Male and female plumage: An even shade of blue-grey throughout.

The Blue
Male plumage: Breast, belly, thighs, tail and closed secondaries the colour of new slate. Hackle, saddle and shoulders and sometimes the tail coverts and the primaries, two shades darker (like a slate after being wetted). Fluff slate-blue.
Female plumage: Blue slate colour with dark hackle like the male, often marked or laced all over with the darker shade. Fluff slate-blue.

The Black-Red
Male plumage: Breast, thighs, belly, tail and wings black. Wing bars green-black: secondaries when closed bay. Crest, head and neck orange-red striped black. Back, shoulders and wing bow red or mahogany. Saddle hackle to match neck hackle. Fluff grey.
Female plumage: Hackle rich golden yellow broadly striped with black. Breast salmon. Muff salmon. Salmon and ash-grey on thighs. Body colour brown pencilled black, each feather with a pale shaft. Tail brown spotted or grizzled with black. Fluff grey.

The Silver Duckwing
Male plumage: Resembles the black-breasted red in the black markings and blue wing bars; rest of the plumage clear silvery white. Fluff light grey.
Female plumage: Hackle white, lightly striped black. Body and wings even silvery grey. Breast pale salmon. Primaries and tail nearly black. Fluff light grey.

The Golden Duckwing
Male plumage: Hackle and saddle yellow straw. Shoulders deep golden. Wing bars steel blue; secondaries yellow or creamy straw when closed, remaining plumage black. Fluff light grey.
Female plumage: Breast deeper, richer colour and body slightly browner tinge than the silver duckwing female. Fluff light grey.

The Blue-red
Male plumage: The same colour pattern as the black-red with slate replacing black. Breast, thighs, belly and tail slate. Secondaries when closed bay. Wing bar slate. Hackle and saddle feathers orange-red with blue centre stripe. Shoulders deep crimson-scarlet. Fluff dark slate.
Female plumage: Hackle golden striped. Breast and muff salmon. Body, wings and tail blue, finely peppered with golden brown. Fluff dark slate.

The Pile
Male plumage: The pile is marked exactly like the black-red except that the black is exchanged for a clear cream-white. Secondaries bay.
Female plumage: Creamy-white with salmon breast and golden striped hackle.

The Crele
Male and female plumage: Neck hackle straw barred with gold or black. Back and shoulder bright gold-chestnut barred with straw-yellow. Wing bar dark grey barred with pale grey; primaries and secondaries dark grey barred with pale; outer web of secondaries chestnut, the chestnut only showing when wing closed. Saddle hackle pale straw barred gold. Breast and underparts dark grey. Tail and tail coverts dark grey barred with light grey. Legs and feet white, with some spotting allowed.

The Spangled
Male and female plumage: These have white tips to their feathers. The more of these spots and the more regularly they are distributed the better. The male should show white ends to the feathers on hackle and saddle. The colour may be red, black or brown, or a mixture of all three. Fluff white.

The Cuckoo
Male and female plumage: Light grey-blue ground colour, each feather crossed with broad bands of dark blue-grey. In the male, a lighter shade is permissible. Undercolour banded but of a lighter shade. Beak light horn or bluish. Legs and feet white with blue spots.

The Black
Male and female plumage: Black with green sheen.
The White
Male and female plumage: Snow-white throughout.

In box sexes and all colours:

Comb and face bright red. Eyes dark orange. Beak and nails horn. Legs in all colours except cuckoo, willow to olive or slate.

Weights
Male2.70-3.20kg (6-7lb)
Female2.25-2.70kg (5-6lb)

Scale of Points
Type and carriage 20
Crest and muffling 25
Comb 10
Other head points 5
Feet and legs 5
Colour 20
Condition & handling 15
100

Serious defects or disqualifications

Cut-away breast. Roach back. Wry or squirrel tail. Crest too small or too large, e.g. Poland type. Absence of crest or muffling. Comb other than of pea type. Comb lopped or twisted. Any comb other than minimal in female. Pearl eye. Feathered legs. Legs other than standard colour. Uneven or splashed breast colour. In males white base in tail. In lavenders any straw or brassy tinge.

BANTAM

The standard to be an exact miniature of the large fowl.
Weights
Male740-850g (26-30oz)
Female680-790g (24-28oz)

Serious Defects
As large fowl, plus low wing carriage. High tail carriage. Any tendency to rose comb. Scale of points as in large fowl.

RUMPLESS ARAUCANA

LARGE FOWL

Origin: Chile

Classification: Light, Soft Feather

Egg Colour: Blue or green

The Rumpless Araucana also has its origins in South America. It was introduced to Europe by Professor S. Castello in the early 1920’s. The ear-tufts of feathers are unique to the breed in that they grow from a fleshy pad adjacent to the ear-lobe. Rumpless Araucanas lay a large egg in relation to body size and are as productive as the tailed Araucanas.

General Characteristics:

Male

Carriage: Alert, active and assured.

Type: Body moderate in length, broad at shoulders. Back flat and slightly sloped. Rump well rounded with saddle feathers flowing over stern. Breast full, round and deep. Wings medium in length, carried close to the body and well up. Saddle hackle well developed. Tail entirely absent, with no uropygium (parson’s nose).

Head: Moderately small. Beak medium stout, curved. Eyes bold and expressive. Comb small pea. Face moderate muffling. Ear-lobes small and concealed by ear-tufts. These originate from a gristly appendage arising from behind and just below the ear hole. The tufts of feathers, numbering from 5 to 15, grow from this pad. The tufts should be of a good length, matching in size and extending from the ears backwards in a well-defined sweep, or projecting horizontally. Wattles very small.

Neck: Medium length, well furnished with hackle feathers.

Legs and feet: Medium in length, straight and well set apart. Toes, four, strong and well spread.

Female

The general characteristics are similar to those of the male, allowing for the natural sexual differences.

Colour

Male and female plumage: As for Tailed Araucanas.

In both sexes and all colours
Eyes dark orange. Legs and feet willow to olive or slate.

Weights
Excess weight to be penalised.
Male2.70kg (6lb)
Female2.25kg (5lb)

Scale of points
Type and carriage 20
Ear-tufts 25
Comb 5
Other head points 5
Feet and legs 5
Colour 15
Condition & handling 25
100
Serious defects

Non-standard comb. Unmatched ear-tufts. Shape other than standard, e.g. narrow body. Any tail feathers (incomplete rumpless). Fluff showing below saddle hackle.

Disqualifications
No ear-tufts, single ear-tuft, crest. Uropygium (parson’s nose).


BANTAM

These should be a true miniature of the large Rumpless Araucana. As the large Rumpless fowl is historically and naturally a small breed, it follows that great care must be taken to keep the bantams within the approved weight limits. Colours at present include black-red, black and white.

Weights
Excess weight to be penalised.
Male910g (32oz)
Female790g (28oz)

 

[generaldsherman]

Hi! Opinions on my blue and splash babies? They're about two months old. Thinking the blue is a boy.

 

[Ravynscroft]

Hi! Opinions on my blue and splash babies? They're about two months old. Thinking the blue is a boy.

Blue is definitely a cockerel... splash looks like a pullet... is that splash or white? Just curious... don't see any splashes in the pic, lol...

 

[generaldsherman]

Blue is definitely a cockerel... splash looks like a pullet... is that splash or white? Just curious... don't see any splashes in the pic, lol...

the pen those eggs came firmware supposed to be b/b/s, so I was guessing the white one would get black as it got bigger