Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Hi All,

glad to see this thread. My quick thoughts are:

we have time
with time we can be purposeful in matings
overtime the offspring of those matings may help define the differences

I'm also happy to see options for the offspring that have incorrect feather colors for the standard Cream Legbars. I think it is a plus to have less "waste".


I'm in favor of the Crele designation.

Here's an example of an off-color pullet.
Her breast feathers were black! Now the salmon is showing through.

Not only less waste as in good chickens being discarded, but the gene pool won't be quite so narrowed...where everyone is trying to get birds from only one or two lines - people will be free-er to develop their own lines..... Wonder why she lost salmon.....hmmmm

 

[chicken pickin]

Following

 

[ChicKat]

WE are fairly certain that a very large crest will cause a wrinkled comb. Allowable on the female and NOT on the male. There has been some discussion lately if the term 'crest' would be better expressed as a tuft for both male and female.

Most crested breeds have a skull bulge to accomodate the growth of a very large crest. There are a LOT of CLs that do not have a skull bulge, and it is considered advantageous to truly have only a small tuft on the male in order to maintain the straightest possible comb. The hen would need a small neat crest...and although allowed, the comb would be more beneficial to the male descendents if it were to be small.

Starting at the top - and thinking more about 'type' - the 'crele' or 'tri-colored' would have a crest, as we consider it one of the traits of the Legbar, because in the USA the correct ones have crests. Cresting is proposed to be a dominant gene.

However there are legbars that lack crests (gold and silver)--- as yet there has been no interest expressed in these Varieties. The White Legbar has a crest, and lays a blue egg.... and we would need a lot of interest in white to push forward, I'm not sure of the ease of autosexing for whites in multiple generations down the line -- but whites do have crests.

To circle back to the proposed SOP - has anyone 'discovered' the wording 'tuft' or 'tufted' in the APA SOP - the genetic foundations are I believe, the same, but the results are different. Also regarding the Crest, could a breed have both herniated and non-herniated individuals? It seems that they would be too different to be the same variety.... any thoughts on crests for a newly developed SOP?

 

[chicken pickin]

to date, there are very few females that are totally gray on all plumage with the exception of salmon on breast-feathers and cream on hackles...once again turning to chicken pickin's post number 5522, we see the gray on backs. This is something that may be influenced away from gray by other factors - I have seen very few with gray feathers, and as those of you who have the breed know, feather colors change a lot - and there are various theories on why the gray will appear taupe or even brown.

same link as the previous post this time #5522

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/509483/cream-legbars/5520

If it will help at all in your discussions I can try this week to get wing shots of my gray female. I also have a few brown tinged pullets and 2 very light taupe hens.

I have yet to do wing shots on any of my females so it will be a good opportunity for me to look them over and really see what each pullet and hen is showing.

 

[ChicKat]

If it will help at all in your discussions I can try this week to get wing shots of my gray female. I also have a few brown tinged pullets and 2 very light taupe hens.

I have yet to do wing shots on any of my females so it will be a good opportunity for me to look them over and really see what each pullet and hen is showing.

That would be really great - because we are saying that the wing is the true 'tell' that separates Legbars out of the Cream - as we know right now. We also need to do a little bit of time tracking - because it would be interesting to see if your gray ones stay gray.

The gray one I had -- turned brown as you know.

Just like the color of legs, where nutrition has a big effect, I wonder if beta carotene may cause a color change in not only the leg color but also the plumage, and to some degree darken the egg. - When I look at the female photo of a wing I put up earlier - by right clicking and opening in another tab, I find the stippling is really a very golden hue - I wish I had gotten a shot of her wing when she was gray....

And then what could have caused the change in coloration?

 

[KPenley]

2 Cents about Crests, and we can talk later too ...typically all crested breeds have cranial hernias. The Legbar will be the first straight comb crested breed accepted into the APA, so this is a new area for the APA. While a breed should probably all have the same skulls, it's not something that would be included in a standard because they will not be examining skulls. The straighter combed birds are the ones with smoother skulls, and they will most likely score better, so ultimately I think the smoother skulls will continue forward.

A tuft is not a usual term in chicken breed descriptions for the APA, excerpt for in the case of ear-tufts," A feathered protuberance on each side of the neck..." Page 8, APA SOP 2010. The Tufted Roman Goose is the only breed of fowl to really include the tuft on the top of the head.
Crests, "An almost globular tuft of feathers on the top of the head of some fowl and waterfowl...Full expression is partially dependent on the "knob" which is a term most generally used to describe the bony structure and mass of tissue and follicles from which the crest grows." Page 7, APA SOP 2010

The current proposed shape section is pretty accurate for the female, but I could see re examining the male. Basically we're dealing with a partial expression in both sexes.

Just a reminder, if these new varieties are going to be varieties of the Legbar they will need to use the same shape section as the cream variety.

 

[caychris]

Following

 

[chicken pickin]

While I was locking up coops tonight I was able to get a few pictures of my grayest pullet that ChicKat referenced from the CL thread post 5522 . She is 22weeks old.

 

[sol2go]

Not only less waste as in good chickens being discarded, but the gene pool won't be quite so narrowed...where everyone is trying to get birds from only one or two lines - people will be free-er to develop their own lines..... Wonder why she lost salmon.....hmmmm

for the record, her breast feathers started out black (dark charcoal) and have slowly changed to salmon.
Her body feathers also have unusual colorations in specific areas.
I offered her to someone who was looking for pullets before you started this thread...and now I'm hoping they change their mind...

off-hand I've thought she has more red influences than gold, as well as more melanizers, but I really couldn't speak to that any further

 

[sol2go]

1) Here are some CL pullets I hatched recently.
I would characterize their down colors as -
Left: Gold, Middle: Cream, Right: Red
They are from the same rooster, probably two hens.


Waiting to see how they develop =)


2) Here's the down color of the off-color pullet posted previously (Delilah).
She's on the left; a colorful bunch overall from one rooster, two hens.
Not the same as (1) above.



3) Here's a recent shot of all three pullets from (2).
Daisy on the left, Daphne in the middle, Delilah on the right.
Daisy and Daphne are from the same hen.
Delilah's mother did not have these same characteristics as a pullet.