Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Your link brought me to Punnett's Genetic Studies in the Legbar paper ( the Gold Legbar paper), so I linked the Punnett's Plumage paper since you had quoted it

...of course you know me...could have totally been my mad computer skills

This is the quote I thought might have had a few words left out.

"Genetic Studies in Poultry, X. Cream Plumage", footnote on page 330 by R.C. Punnett

The more I've learned about Punnett from this last part of his life, that was involved with poultry testing and discovery, the more I've come to wonder how much he was actually involved. I think he loved genetics and loved studying poultry. His wife hated it and the time he was away and wouldn't even let people call Reginald "Professor Punnett" in her presence. At some point, we don't know when, students and associates did almost all the pairings and Prof Punnett wrote papers based on their results. I think it is very possible that mistakes could have been made with so many hands and so many experiments available to work with. But maybe not too.

Perhaps Henk would be a good person to contact to figure out your genetics question. If it were me, I would test my rooster to a Brown Leghorn or some other easy to find basic gold bird and see what happens. If the offspring turn out all gold, then your bird is gold based and there is nothing further to question. If the offspring result in all silver looking males and females, then your rooster is S/S. If your offspring result in silver and gold chicks of both sexes, the rooster is most likely S/s+. I guess I don't see questioning the results if they turn out the way they should, but that is my two cents, and I hear you that there can be hidden recessives mixing up results. And you, as is everyone, are more than welcome to your opinion. I hope Henk can give you a breeding test plan that answers your question thoroughly. I'm sure you are right that some serious tight line breeding will be involved. Please share your results! And please let me know if I can help

Kestlyn, thanks for correcting my link. It must have been the cookies then that took me to the cream paper, when I clicked the link I had posted. Yes...that is the one I was quoting from...LOL

Is the Pease information you added in that publication?

ETA OMG - this sounds like a drama..."The more I've learned about Punnett from this last part of his life, that was involved with poultry testing and discovery, the more I've come to wonder how much he was actually involved. I think he loved genetics and loved studying poultry. His wife hated it and the time he was away and wouldn't even let people call Reginald "Professor Punnett" in her presence. " do you think she burned down his lab and notes -- kidding , only kidding - -something for the conspiracy theorists to make a screen play of - that's all.

Seriously now, I wonder if I could have different results than Punnett did. ;O)

 

[KPenley]

Hmmmmm....I'm not sure if they ever figured out the fire...

 

[ChicKat]

While we are awaiting the Club's Q4 newsletter, in case any interested CL Club members unaware of this thread wish to participate, my next thought is that we take a CL or several CLs and walk through the SOP as compared to that particular bird.

The pair shown in the 1988 Fancy Fowl magazine will be used as examples where possible. Attributed to David Applegarth who saved the breed from extinction. It was mentioned that it could be a photo of a gold Legbar since David Applegarth had a gold legbar or gold legbar-cross - And also had a Cream Legbar at the time that he was not able to successfully pair with his Cream Legbar females. To my eye it appears the the male in the photo has a strong crest - which would indicate more a CL than a cross. It could easily be that the posed picture doesn't necessarialy represent a breeding pair - but rather Applegarth's example of the breed. My supposition would be that he wouldn't submit a mistaken photo to a UK poultry magazine.

• IMO - beautiful bright red for face comb and wattles (BTW if it isn't clear on your screen - it is a cut-and-paste from Club's website DRAFT SOP - link in my sig if you need to see clearer text.
• beak - light yellow -- ivory-like Could be lighting of photo, old photo faded, transfers through computer etc. He could use a bit more yellow - but it isn't horn, dark, black or other miss....
• eyes - Reddish Bay - Nice example...
• Earlobes - Enamel white - The UK allows both white and cream - so I'm glad to see this one with white.
• Head - Plumage Cream and Gray - open to some interpretation, but I don't think anyone would be too upset if they had a color like this on the head of their male..
• Crest - Cream & Gray - some chestnut permissible - interestingly I don't see gray on the crest. again it could be the photo it could also be an older male. My 3-year old - has faded to mostly white-looking crest feathers in his comb - and I attribute it to old age. I definitely see at the ends what I would consider some of the permissible chestnut.

TYPE portion of draft SOP

• Comb - definitely not flopped over, may have a swing at the end away from the camera and not be ruler-straight - just supposition since it is a picture. Good on the even serrations between the points. I count - 7 but can't truly tell from picture and angle.. The UK standard allows 5-7 - The USA standard settled upon 6 since the APA requires a specific number and not a range. The rest of the comb appears to be a reasonable match to the SOP from what can be seen in a pict. One of the reasons that judges what to see the entire whole up-close and personal bird for a judging pictures only can tell so much.
• Beak - a match IMO
• Face - a match IMO - nice face on this guy
• Eyes - a match IMO
• Wattles - I see what I would call 'folds' - and I wonder if a bit smaller wattles would have less tendency to fold in that way.
• Ear-Lobes - Seem to have a bit of a fold in the center - like taco-earlobe, My flock has larger Ear lobes than this more pendant as well
• Crest - a match - I would think from what is show in the photo 'practically perfect' - I would be interested in how others see this cock-bird's crest in comparison to the DRAFT SOP
• Head - a match IMO -- of fine quality is vague as one of our judges pointed out -- what exactly determines 'of fine quality'. ?

 

[KPenley]

Fine quality = balance, proportion, wide (not crow headed, etc)....funny that a judge would comment since it's a very old APA term LOL!

 

[chicken pickin]

Fine quality = balance, proportion, wide (not crow headed, etc)....funny that a judge would comment since it's a very old APA term LOL!

I agree with your definition.

I think I have CL pullet with crow head, I love her otherwise but her head is "off". Ill try to get a pic of her soon. I do not consider her to have a head of Fine Quality.

 

[ChicKat]

Fine quality = balance, proportion, wide (not crow headed, etc)....funny that a judge would comment since it's a very old APA term LOL!

Yes, KP --I Checked my SOP because I thought that crow head was a general DQ - but didnt' see it there under the general DQs. I have an older version... I wonder to some degree if there is subjectivity in the 'proportion' --- what I think may be too small or too large a head - may be ideal in someone else's eyes. I think that Leghorns have a very specific set of guidelines of their combs - to the effect (I'm paraphrasing from memory here-- could be off -- ) the height needs to be 1/2 the width and there needs to be a certain depth to the comb spikes. I think perhaps his reference was to something less subjective.

I agree with your definition.

I think I have CL pullet with crow head, I love her otherwise but her head is "off". Ill try to get a pic of her soon. I do not consider her to have a head of Fine Quality.

I wonder about crow-headed too-- and then sometimes I think it is the appearance of the way the comb is not upright and the crest changes the proportional look. Please do get a picture and I will see if I can get a couple of photos too. I had one photo blown up really big for the Club's table - and when I saw it I wondered if I am putting a crow headed pullet up - but then I thought that to fit the specified size of print the picture may have gotten streatched a bit to look a little weird. I SEE the photo of crow head in the APA standard -- but that doesn't make me SURE I will recognize it on a real bird from the drawing. I think that the crow head in my SOP (figure 23) shows the drawing of the head scarcely thicker than the largest end of the beak - and somewhat forward on the neck, (It also calls it 'over refined' ) and I may have a narrow head but not THAT narrow.!!

 

[ChicKat]

Color - Male

Neck - Hackle Cream sparsely barred with gray
Shoulder - cream barred with dark gray some chestnut permissible
Front of neck - same as breast

Shape - Male

neck - Long and Well covered with hackle feathers

Neck hackles !!! The easiest and the hardest - maybe - perhaps also the most controversial.
In addition to the Applegarth bird, the winner of the Poultry show in the UK pictured here. I would say both are cream - and I would also say that the UK bird is not probably 'over saturated' - and we only do have the imperfection of photos displayed here -- but the earlobe is white as a comparison and the woman's hand (finger) look like normal skin tones. So here is part of the 'it depends upon how you define cream' dilemma. I believe that there is a range and both birds fit inside it and are correct for their color according to both UK and USA SOPs

 

[ChicKat]

I think today - I really saw the contrast between cream and white IMO


And it has been there right before my/our eyes all along. IMO the tips of the feathers coming in on this 1-week old pullet are white and not cream - and the two light dorsal stripes and all the undefluff is cream.

 

[sol2go]

I think today - I really saw the contrast between cream and white IMO


And it has been there right before my/our eyes all along. IMO the tips of the feathers coming in on this 1-week old pullet are white and not cream - and the two light dorsal stripes and all the undefluff is cream.

Hi ChicKat,

white like this?


I can say for sure this cockerel who is now about 6 months, has gold wing triangles.

As much as I enjoy the finer details, it seems like time is the biggest tell. There are so many subtle variations and the phase changes are just hard to predict for me. I am introducing new factors as I blend stock, hoping to arrive at a stable product. I suppose what might seem like a clear indicator to you, is not necessarily true for me.

I was looking at the areas of white down under the chin, continuing onto the neck and down the chest, also around the eyes - not gold, not yellow, but white = cream. While I have had some nice cream pullets, this has also resulted in cockerels that developed gold wing triangles. long sigh….

 

[sol2go]

Thanks for providing the link to the article. It was a very good read! I wandered down the images from the show and found three images of a bantam Welbar. Much if our discussions seem to circle back to speculation about what cream and gold look like using pictures of non-barred and sometimes non wild type based birds, which makes my head hurt trying to extrapolate the results. The Welbars are very useful as comparisons for the Legbar as they are essentially a non-dilute Crele and I think that the 'alternative' Legbars we are talking about should end up looking very similar to them, with some differences such as crest and white ears, of course:




...and I do see gold peeking from behind the grey barring on his wing triangles, so he is being consistent with the proposed 'tell' that if the cock has gold there he is indeed non-diluted.

pretty! I would second these colors for the alternative legbar, with your added comments. Would anyone else consider the hackle and saddle mismatched? I only mention that because I like the way they look, they seem mismatched based on previous discussions, and there has been some concern that the APA will not look favorably on a mismatch…not that APA approval of the alternative legbar is a priority at this time...