Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Color - Male

Tail: Main Tail—gray, evenly barred.
Sickle and Coverts—light gray, barred, some white feathers permissible.




Shape - Male

Tail: Moderately full, carried at an angle of forty-five degrees above horizontal.
Main tail—feathers broad and overlapping.
Sickles—long and well curved.
Lesser Sickles and Coverts—long, of good width, nicely curved and abundant.



Here is a photo of the white tail feathers of the same male - with an 18-month time lapse between the pictures:


Perhaps when molt is entirely complete the white feathers will have grown back in - I find them very ephemeral.

Picture from the Dairy show when CLs were introduced:

I see the main tail feathers at 45-degrees but the greater sickles are not - to my eye. I also think that this cockerel shows the long back and long neck. Both tail barring and pattern are very nice on this Cream Legbar IMO.

 

[KPenley]

We should definitely walk-thru the females after the males.  

Love your question about tail angle on female.  As I look at all the CLs from 'back-in-the-day' --- I wonder if the tail angles specified actually DESCRIBE the true living breathing birds, or if they are rather an ideal to be aimed at.  I don't see many tail angles from Punnett's day that are a match.  Maybe it is my old eyes? ;O)

Just as a comparison with my Blue Isbars that haven't got a standard (that I'm aware of) -- I'm of the opinion that idealized is wonderful, but I wish that I had a realistic description of quality Isbar to help select for breeding purposes etc. 

Since people may have not been participating in an earlier walk through as mentioned by KPenley, and since we have probably learned more since that time and since it was published, this probably is helpful to a lot of people.  Kes, is the walk-thru something that can be easily referenced?  Is it in an old Club Newsletter?  

One thing that would also help people presently working with the Breed and those that will come along later, is if we had either a booklet of a walk-thru or incorporated it into a Cream Legbar Club Handbook - since the current Handbook is pretty out-of-date. 

The discussion one is at the start of the original SOP thread. The In Depth series was presented, in part, by Curtis at the q2 and q3 meetings in 2014. It will be in booklet form, but I need to do some editing to make it a complete work instead of a series. I thought Curtis' slide shows were going to be at the clubhouse and the website, but I'll have to do some rummaging to see. I'd better get editing.

Found one part
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xryq2x0zd7dbe49/CLC Newsletter 2.3 corrected.pdf?dl=0

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks KPenley

 

[sol2go]

I see the main tail feathers at 45-degrees but the greater sickles are not - to my eye. I also think that this cockerel shows the long back and long neck. Both tail barring and pattern are very nice on this Cream Legbar IMO.

Hi, popping in to draw attention to the chest.
While the curvature is not as smooth / rounded as Walt made mention of at the Novato type evaluation, the fullness of the chest is lower as Walt had suggested for our breeding programs.
Does anyone think this stance is a little awkward, as if his legs are set back a little too far?

 

[ChicKat]

Now that you point out the legs, it does look like his legs are a bit crouched. Another trouble with Picts.

 

[chicken pickin]

Hi, popping in to draw attention to the chest.
While the curvature is not as smooth / rounded as Walt made mention of at the Novato type evaluation, the fullness of the chest is lower as Walt had suggested for our breeding programs.
Does anyone think this stance is a little awkward, as if his legs are set back a little too far?

I agree that either his stance is off or his legs are set too far back giving him an unbalanced look which we do not want to see. He may just be leaning forward, its hard to tell.

 

[enola]

He looks like he is crouching down some...... Maybe he is like me? Camera shy? But, after studying the picture, and imaging him straightened up. I have to agree, his legs may be set a little far back. I do like the length of his back and his tail set.

 

[ChicKat]

Wing discussion



Color - Male

Wings: Fronts and Bows (2, 5)—dark gray, faintly barred, some chestnut permissible.
(? meaning flight coverts? 9 )Coverts—gray, barred, tipped in cream.
8) Primaries—dark gray, faintly barred, some white permissible.
4) Secondaries—dark gray, more clearly barred.

Shape - Male

Wings: Large and carried close to the body without dropping

note: my internet has been going up and down all morning - very aggrivating. Clear day too so no satellite blockage with cloud cover.

I will post this now for discussion/consideration - and add more and photos as possible.





8) Let's start with the Primaries. "Dark Gray, Faintly Barred, some white permissible. - we don't see the primaries with the wing folded correct?

I have photos here with quite a lot of white on the primaries of both rooster examples:





BUT for our two sample birds from the UK as compared to the SOP - we have to say we don't know if it is a match or not a match to the SOP. For my own examples with extended wings, I would say that "some white allowed" is probably exceeded.


4) Secondaries (These show in the wing triangle that appears to be the tip of the wing) - correct me if I am mistaken anyone........

I do have an interesting contrast from Punnett where he shows the difference between a cream and a gold bird in the feathers (these are not feathers from a barred bird I believe) The explanation is "corresponding feathers from a pure brown Leghorn Cock and from a cream with the brown Leghorn type of plumage. Figures 1 and 2 are Secondaries. (This plate is at the end of the Cream article referenced earlier).


So it will start to get more interesting and we will need more views for discussion. It was determined that the "tell" for a Cream bird was going to be the wing triangle (i.e. secondaries)--- This wing triangle is very evident in the example grid of crele Leghorns where the silver one has a white triangle and the gold one has a brown triangle. It was expected that a Cream Legbar would have only gray in the secondary feathers so barred gray would be the indicator.

As already noted and pointed out earlier in this thread, the above Applegarth male has non-gray color in the wing triangle. Also - some time back Rinda had mentioned that she got a non-gray or in her case it may have been a non-cream or non-white-looking wing triangle when she paired two chickens she knew for certain were cream. The UK prize winner has a very light triangle.

At one point we had thought that the wing triangle was the variety decider. To my mind at present it is an indicator, but the Applegarth male above leads me to believe that it isn't a variety indicator as much as it is an example of a place were a particular chicken is not a perfect match to the SOP.

9) Coverts -
All the coverts shown are gray barred. I question if the tips are cream or if they are dark.

2, 5) All examples gray barred and each of them showing the permissible chestnut

 

[ChicKat]

Color - Male
Breast: Dark gray, evenly barred, well defined outline.


Shape - Male
Breast: Prominent, well-rounded, carried forward and upright




The upper cockerel/cock-bird carries the curve lower as sol2Go pointed out was Walt's recommendation - the show winner has the dip in the breast that interrupts the curve. Don't we show something similar in the Club's logo on the male breast?

Color wise both in the definition IMO - the top one perhaps a bit light to be called dark gray? Never-the-less nothing in these that suggests to me that there is a different variety out and about.

 

[caychris]

Color - Male
Breast: Dark gray, evenly barred, well defined outline.


Shape - Male
Breast: Prominent, well-rounded, carried forward and upright




The upper cockerel/cock-bird carries the curve lower as sol2Go pointed out was Walt's recommendation - the show winner has the dip in the breast that interrupts the curve. Don't we show something similar in the Club's logo on the male breast?

Color wise both in the definition IMO - the top one perhaps a bit light to be called dark gray? Never-the-less nothing in these that suggests to me that there is a different variety out and about.

Ok so here is what I am gathering from the conversation so far and what little research Ive been able to do. (Note I am a complete novice here so if I dont get something be gentle)

The Lebars themselves were originally introduced into BPA as Gold Legbars and Silver Legbars came later. The Creme Legbars were the result of reintroducing Gold Legbars roo back to White Leghorn hens and taking the off white pullets of the cross and breeding back to the Gold Legbar.

To me this seems to suggest to me that any alternative Legbar that would be introduced would have to stem from a select breeding program not simply identifying some Gold/Silver/Cream defect that becomes more desirable.

I think you would have to show that the parent breeds were identified first and that you are able to produce a predictable result. (Even if that result is a sport or limited genetic result of the pairing)

As muddy as the Legbar gene pool is at this point I would think this is one of the reasons why even getting the identified breeds is such a challenge.
It seems I have an affinity for these really difficult breedings. I started chickens with Delawares and became quickly interested in creating my own line but found quickly how difficult not having clear bloodline definitions is especially when dealing with birds that are more genetic anomalies than anything else. My estimation is that much of the difficulty there comes from the barred rock genes which are a mess you never know whats hiding in there. We guess what Lebars come from.