Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Ok so here is what I am gathering from the conversation so far and what little research Ive been able to do. (Note I am a complete novice here so if I dont get something be gentle)

The Lebars themselves were originally introduced into BPA as Gold Legbars and Silver Legbars came later. The Creme Legbars were the result of reintroducing Gold Legbars roo back to White Leghorn hens and taking the off white pullets of the cross and breeding back to the Gold Legbar.

To me this seems to suggest to me that any alternative Legbar that would be introduced would have to stem from a select breeding program not simply identifying some Gold/Silver/Cream defect that becomes more desirable.

I think you would have to show that the parent breeds were identified first and that you are able to produce a predictable result. (Even if that result is a sport or limited genetic result of the pairing)

As muddy as the Legbar gene pool is at this point I would think this is one of the reasons why even getting the identified breeds is such a challenge.
It seems I have an affinity for these really difficult breedings. I started chickens with Delawares and became quickly interested in creating my own line but found quickly how difficult not having clear bloodline definitions is especially when dealing with birds that are more genetic anomalies than anything else. My estimation is that much of the difficulty there comes from the barred rock genes which are a mess you never know whats hiding in there. We guess what Lebars come from.

caychris-

Thanks for the good insights. I am agreeing with you that we really don't know entirely the genes that we are dealing with inside each of our own specific CLs - and The CLs have a white Leghorn in the mix as well which may have a lot of hidden genetics - just like the BPR.

Punnett did develop the Gold Legbar first, and subsequently the Silver Legbar. Strangely neither of those breeds seem to have much attention paid to them and there is some debate if there even are any Silver Legbars at all. The Cream Legbar is supposed to be based on the Gold Legbar. Did you draw your conclusions from the History of the Cream Legbar on the Cream Legbar Club's website?

Your thought that the parent breeders would have to produce predictable offspring is very spot ON! To obtain a breed acceptance by the APA members must sign affidavits that they have been breeding the particular breed for 5-years and the offspring produced are at least 50% true.

It 's great that you have an affinity for the complex breeds! The Cream Legbars do need all the support that they can get from people who are interested in them.

 

[ChicKat]

Discussion - body


Color - Male

Back: Cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible.
Saddle—cream, barred with dark gray, edged in cream.

Under-Color of All Sections: Silver-gray.

Shape - Male

Body and Fluff: Body--moderately long, sloping to the tail, broad in front tapering
slightly to the rear. Keel is of good length, following the line of the back. Feathers
moderately long and close to the body.
Fluff—medium in length, moderately full.



Probably a better example of the undercolor and fluff in the top picture, more visibly 'silver-gray'. More of the back visible in the lower picture. In the upper photo the neck hackles and saddle hackles seem to touch/overlap. So in both cases IMO they are accepted examples - but due to photo angle not 100% clear ones. Both examples of saddles would be what I would consider cream, what about you? I consider the saddles better cream than the hackles.

Regarding type - I think the broad front tapering tot he back is the top view - so won't show in the side view that the pictures are taken in. The longer keel and the keel 'following the line of the back shown better in the lower picture. Feathers and the fluff in both - not controversial - examples of the description.

 

[ChicKat]

discussion - male - legs feet toes



Shape - Male

Legs and Toes: Legs--moderately long, straight when viewed from the front. Thighs are
medium length. Shanks round, strong, and free from feathers.
Toes—four, long, straight, and well-spread.

Color - Male

Legs and Toes: Yellow.


Doesn't that UK cockerel have a gorgeous example of the SOP - ?? Maybe his feet/legs/shanks were a deciding factor.

Both fit the SOP and leg color was never in the running to exemplify a new variety.


And that's it! There is the final part of the walk-thru for the SOP & comparing two birds that are Cream Legbars --

Congratulations to you if you traveled through all the posts regarding the male in both shape and color...with examples from photos.

 

[chicken pickin]

Good job on the walk through!

 

[ChicKat]

Good job on the walk through!

Thanks c p !

 

[ChicKat]

Continuing the discussion of the SOP -- as it is in current form with reference pictures of the Applegarth female and the female that was the winner this year in UK show.





COLOR -- FEMALE

Comb, Face, and Wattles: Bright red.
Beak: Yellow.
Eyes: Reddish bay.
Ear-lobes: Enamel white.

SHAPE -- FEMALE

Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, erect or first point to stand erect and the remainder of
the comb dropping gracefully to the side without obscuring the eyes, deeply and
evenly serrated having six distinct points.
Beak: Stout, point clear of the front of the comb, slightly curved.
Face: Smooth, skin fine in texture.
Eyes: Large, bright, and prominent. Round in appearance.
Wattles: Medium in length, thin, uniform in size, well-rounded, free from folds or
Ear-lobes: Medium, elongated oval, pendant, smooth and free from folds, equally
matched in size and shape.


All the qualities on the female listed above are non-controversial - red comb and wattles, yellow beaks etc. etc. Examining the hen/pullet closely could show us where we can move closer to the standard on the comb, on the eye-color etc. but there are no areas of disagreement or different interpretations in these items from what I know. Both the UK show female and the Applegarth female are good examples of these particular qualities in the CL. .

 

[ChicKat]

discussion - female crest

Okay - here is one that is going to have some opinions that diverge IMO - please post your thoughts and ideas. And please post photos of the crests on your females.... I'm rather astonished that the female crest didn't become a hot topic of discussion already......



Color - Female

Crest: Cream and gray, some chestnut permissible.


Shape - Female

Crest: Medium, rising well in front so as not to obstruct the eyes, with feathers narrow
and falling off the back of the head to below the blade of the comb.







We are getting very 'granular' and the pictures are pixelating when sliced and diced this small -- however, I think still useful to make the point.

Both UK hens/pullets have much lighter crests than the majority of hens/pullets I recall seeing in the USA. Some raisers DO have the lighter crests. We had theoretically surmised that the darker crests would go with the alternative SOP, however, increasingly I'm wondering if only the crest is a true difference. The male seems to be a match 'coloroful' or 'non-colorful' to the SOP - if one were to think that the UK examples were 'too colorful' or 'golden' etc.

Then there is 'Lillian' our original example from the Cream Legbar Club's website:


More views of Lillian:



For those of you who may be newer to the world of Cream Legbars, Lillian is the pullet that won at the Nationals and the Federation show for UK Cream Legbar raiser and Cream Legbar Club member Jill Rees. She has generously given us permission to use Lillian on the Cream Legbar Club's website and in an article in the Club's Newsletter. When we were just starting with the breed in the USA all those years ago, we had chicks, and didn't even know what to look for or exactly what to expect as they grew to adulthood. There was far less information about CLs way back when.

Here are some headshots of some of mine...I do not have light crests, and I don't have bouffant crests either for the most part.









ETA = from the London Dairy Show

 

[ChicKat]

C'mon Ladies and Gents,

Need to hear what you think of crests on females - what you see, what you want to see in your flock, some photos, some ideas.... did I forget to ask you before?

 

[chicken pickin]

I will try to chime in after work tonight

 

[chicken pickin]

On females I am seeming to prefer a lighter crest. I am still getting a variety within my flock and each is somewhat different. But I do like to see a lighter crest that resembles the color of the hackles. I will post a few of my hens/pullets crests and add a comment about what I am seeing.

This is my favorite hen and I like that her crest is similar in color to her cream hackles, the crest is gray feathers edged in cream.The 2nd and 3rd pics are of the same hen at a younger age, also a second hen is pictured and has the same crest.



This hen is one of my Rees line pullets and I also like her crest. Her crest also seems to be gray feathers edged in cream.

This is the same Rees pullet as above at a younger age


This is a young pullet from my flock also has a crest that is gray feathers edged in cream.