Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

What Gorgeous photos!! Thanks chicken pickin -

What your pictures show is very much how I am beginning to see the crest as the UK-style for a Cream Legbar female.

 

[chambe94]

I agree, I prefer the medium to lighter crest look, though I have both types. One of my favorite girls

 

[sol2go]

C'mon Ladies and Gents,

Need to hear what you think of crests on females - what you see, what you want to see in your flock, some photos, some ideas.... did I forget to ask you before?

Hi ChicKat
I'm not really sure how to participate.
Are you looking for thoughts on the alternative SOP, or reviewing the SOP for the Cream Legbar?
Thanks.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi ChicKat
I'm not really sure how to participate.
Are you looking for thoughts on the alternative SOP, or reviewing the SOP for the Cream Legbar?
Thanks.

Yes to all ;O)

There was an announcement to go out in the 4th Quarter Cream Legbar Club's newsletter to ask for participation in the discussion - so I thought while awaiting that announcement - a walk-thru of the Draft SOP would be a good 'filler'.

I actually have learned a bit by cutting up the pictures and referring to the SOP. I guess that the newsletter is nearly ready -to go - and since there are around 100 Club members (from 2014 that is - each year needs a new enrollment - ) My thought that someone from the Club who is unaware of this thread, or doesn't participate in BYC much may want to weigh in.

In someways I think -
"is SOP" vs "is not SOP" is open to interpretation -- but that doesn't help a lot for those seeking guidance... They may ask 'what should I be looking for - breeding for?" and IMO "do what you like best" is less helpful than - "here is a good example of ....(let's say comb or fill in the blank ) The opposite of that is what was going on when someone would say '' that doesn't look like a cream Legbar" -- which I know I have also said...and perhaps some of the worst 'advice' - that kind of made folks feel that the breed wasn't for them because either they paid significant money for a chick or set of chicks only to be told that they are 'gold legbars' or that they are 'mutts' -

Then the idea arose that maybe the ones called 'gold' really should have a variety of their own. And so this thread was started to explore the differences - and perhaps a mis-match to the standards.

Then the pendulum swung IMO from the ultra-light colored CLs to the ones that more folks think of as a Cream Legbar...(all during the existance of this thread) --- Increasingly I think that the need for a new SOP variety based on crele is not needed.... So I walked through some UK examples of CLs - that about 6-8 months ago, I think there are people who would have told me that they are not-correct or that they are not Cream Legbars or that they are gold or that they have the wrong coloration.

(More than you ever wanted to know? ;O) --)

I think that any examples of the topics of a female as the remainder of the SOp is applied to females would be valuable - ideas, opinions or pictures...and then probably this thread can be closed up -- Unless there is a compelling voice or voices for an alternate SOP -- I know that should the recessive white and the Rose Comb come to that point the alternative SOP would be needed - but a judge could easily know if a rose comb is present or a straight comb - and also if the white is evident or if it is a crele CL.

:O)

 

[sol2go]

Thanks for that ChicKat, it more or less sums up the course of this thread.
While the push for alternative SOP's may have subsided, I still think a variation on this theme is helpful.

As we have all seen, there are some wild and wonderful variations of Cream Legbars that pop-up. As breeders work to strengthen their Cream Legbar stock, it may be possible to set aside some of the variants, even as they are able to document their 50% or better standard for the APA acceptance.

Having separated that stock from the stricter Cream Legbar breeding programs, the variants need not be considered hybrids, ie the white sports, or the crele; also the rosecombs? But it would be handy to have alternate descriptors so breeders, the general public and the APA in particular, can clearly distinguish between a Cream Legbar and the crested, blue egg laying derivatives.

As we have gone through this process, I have become more aware of the differences in the expressed genetics:
the double cream and barring that lightens the overall appearance, versus the melanization and red enhancers that contribute to a much more colorful appearance. Certainly more details than I cared about when I was looking for a blue egg layer. And that doesn't even begin to address type.

So thanks for the thread, I hope we have a way to include the other offspring as something other than non-standard Cream Legbars, even if they never make it to the APA.

 

[caychris]

Thanks for that ChicKat, it more or less sums up the course of this thread.
While the push for alternative SOP's may have subsided, I still think a variation on this theme is helpful.

As we have all seen, there are some wild and wonderful variations of Cream Legbars that pop-up. As breeders work to strengthen their Cream Legbar stock, it may be possible to set aside some of the variants, even as they are able to document their 50% or better standard for the APA acceptance.

Having separated that stock from the stricter Cream Legbar breeding programs, the variants need not be considered hybrids, ie the white sports, or the crele; also the rosecombs? But it would be handy to have alternate descriptors so breeders, the general public and the APA in particular, can clearly distinguish between a Cream Legbar and the crested, blue egg laying derivatives.

As we have gone through this process, I have become more aware of the differences in the expressed genetics:
the double cream and barring that lightens the overall appearance, versus the melanization and red enhancers that contribute to a much more colorful appearance. Certainly more details than I cared about when I was looking for a blue egg layer. And that doesn't even begin to address type.

So thanks for the thread, I hope we have a way to include the other offspring as something other than non-standard Cream Legbars, even if they never make it to the APA.

I agree

It would be interesting to note if Gold Legbars have some of these same issues when trying to reach their same standard. And since the Cream are diluted with White Leghorn and from what I can tell essentially not common results of the cross(Kind of like how Delawares started as breeding the sports from that cross) it might be of note to look a little deeper into the genetics of the Gold Legbar and how many problems that bird has on reaching standard.

 

[enola]

**waving frantically from the sidelines** I am definately interested in the Alternative SOP for Cream Legbars. I think Cream Legbars are pretty, but I LOVE the 'Crele' Alternative....

 

[caychris]

**waving frantically from the sidelines** I am definately interested in the Alternative SOP for Cream Legbars. I think Cream Legbars are pretty, but I LOVE the 'Crele' Alternative....

My issue is what is the parentage for this version. The cross that produced Cream were lighter pullets from a Gold Legbar over White Leghorn bred back to the Gold Legbar.

The question then is where do we get the Crele version is it off the same tree as the Cream or is it a selective breeding of non SOP Cream. Or is it selective breeding from non SOP Gold or Silver

(When i mention SOP im referring to the British standards for the breeds)

Since the 2 alternate breeds have the same roots and are the result of selective breeding after Gold was established we would have to know what tree these are coming from.

 

[chambe94]

Although

My issue is what is the parentage for this version. The cross that produced Cream were lighter pullets from a Gold Legbar over White Leghorn bred back to the Gold Legbar.

The question then is where do we get the Crele version is it off the same tree as the Cream or is it a selective breeding of non SOP Cream. Or is it selective breeding from non SOP Gold or Silver

(When i mention SOP im referring to the British standards for the breeds)

Since the 2 alternate breeds have the same roots and are the result of selective breeding after Gold was established we would have to know what tree these are coming from.

I guess I'm missing what you are asking.

Cream Legbars were not strictly Gold Legbar/White Leghorn crosses (otherwise they wouldn't be crested or lay blue eggs). Those breeds were used (esp by Pease), but there were other factors involved (Chilean hen -where the crest and blue eggs came from, Gold Pencilled Hamburg -where one version of the cream came from). There is a huge amount of information from Punnet on what he used to make the Cream Legbar. This isn't a guess.

I'm also not sure what you mean by a Silver Legbar.

 

[caychris]

Although

I guess I'm missing what you are asking.

Cream Legbars were not strictly Gold Legbar/White Leghorn crosses (otherwise they wouldn't be crested or lay blue eggs). Those breeds were used (esp by Pease), but there were other factors involved (Chilean hen -where the crest and blue eggs came from, Gold Pencilled Hamburg -where one version of the cream came from). There is a huge amount of information from Punnet on what he used to make the Cream Legbar. This isn't a guess.

I'm also not sure what you mean by a Silver Legbar.

Legbars come in 3 recognized types by BPA Gold, Silver and Cream

From what I understand
The Cream originated by Gold Legbar being Bred to White Leghorn. the off white color pullets being bred back to Gold Legbar and the cream colored chicks then bred to the Aracunas (cream colored again) and selective breeding resulted in the recognized Standard for Cream by the BPA.

So in short much of the coloration and patterning we see in this breed has to do with its Gold Legbar ancestry.
The same root Gold Legbar genetics are at the root of the Silver Legbar

This is similar to how New Hampshires are a selective breeding program of RIR birds.

Is the alternative another Legbar or a selective breeding program of less than standard Cream. The Crele appears to be something discarded in the breeding leading up to Cream and as such is probably still latent in all Legbars as well as some other color and pattern variations so I question where in the Legbar tree is the split going to be.