Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

 

[ChicKat]

Discussion - Cream Legbar Female and DRAFT SOP

COLOR - FEMALE
Wings: Fronts, Bows and Coverts—silver-gray, faintly barred.
Primaries— gray, faintly barred, the outer web stippled with lighter gray and cream.
Secondaries— gray, very faintly barred.

Breast: Salmon, well defined in outline, some feathers having a slightly lighter shaft
permissible.


SHAPE - FEMALE
Wings: Large and carried close to the body without dropping.




Breast: Prominent, well-rounded, carried forward and upright.








1947 female for reference
Horizontal wings - close to body



Of all the examples - I think that the crops of the Cream Legbar Club's Website homepage 'Lillian' show the best type.

Each female shows shafting in the salmon feathers IMO. Never have I seen one that didn't.

 

[sol2go]

1947 female for reference
Horizontal wings - close to body



Of all the examples - I think that the crops of the Cream Legbar Club's Website homepage 'Lillian' show the best type.

Each female shows shafting in the salmon feathers IMO. Never have I seen one that didn't.

does anyone else think the 1947 reference pictures are incredibly unattractive?

 

[ChicKat]

does anyone else think the 1947 reference pictures are incredibly unattractive?

I agree that they are. One thing that is a consideration is that chickens were not the beauty-birds then that they are now... UK was just recovering from the aftermath of WWII - and they were probably only given free-range and a bit of ?? scratch-equivalent. We have so much better nutrition and conditions to offer our chickens now -- and they have been selected in the intervening years for the ones that are best looking.

One thing I notice from '47 hen is that the neck is extremely light near the head -- most of my flock have a lot of dark feathers there...but succeeding generations from my original 'Robin' hen are lighter. The crest in the 1947 photo is very sparse to my eye - almost like the males of today - and nothing like the pom-poms that some of the hens have now-a-days!



These from 1947 look closer to their dinosaur ancestors, don't they?

There is another old photo from the Cream Legbar Club's handbook -- that also shows a bit different chicken than today's

If these are all hens, the the one on the far right in back seems to have spurs. They definitely don't have pom-pom crests, and these chickens look like they had more to eat. the comb and wattles on the right two -- are fairly large for a CL hen IMO -- and they all have the distinctive squirrel tail. The far right forground bird has more distinct tail barring...less visible crest - It doesn't really look like a cockerel - but the tails on theses birds are taller than the heads. Because the photo is so old, it is possible that there is a lot of fading - and the print/reproduction dpi is more news-paper like than photographic...but They all have sturdy substantial bodies and prominent breast carriage. They look more substantial than the 1947 model.

 

[ChicKat]

Discussion - Cream Legbar Female and DRAFT SOP

COLOR - FEMALE
Body and Fluff: Silver-gray, indistinctly barred.
Legs and Toes: Yellow.
Under-Color of All Sections: Silver-gray.

SHAPE - FEMALE
Body and Fluff: Body-- moderately long, sloping to the tail, broad in front tapering
slightly to the rear. Keel is of good length, following the line of the back. Feathers
moderately long and close to the body.
Fluff—medium in length, moderately full.
Legs and Toes: Legs-- moderately long, straight when viewed from the front. Thighs are
medium length. Shanks round, strong, and free from feathers.
Toes—four, long, straight, and well-spread.








So there you have it -- head-to-toe walk-thru of the existing Draft SOP that the Cream Legbar Club is working with. The examples used to match to the verbage are from the UK - and are soild examples of CL IMO - the 2014 winning cockerel and winning pullet can certainly be the vision that the newer breeders can aim for. There are some definite 'miss the mark' situations, mostly the females in the USA are more brown/taupe where the SOP calls for gray and silver gray. Even the tails are more 'black/brown' or did it say 'brown/black' --- Chicken pickin has the most correct tail coloring I have seen... But if everyone in the USA got hatching eggs from Chicken pickin, the gene pool would be very small and not conducive to the long-term well being of the breed IMO - but over the coming years we can select for a more silver-gray faintly barred tail --

The sample pullet/hen that was designed by GaryDean26 shows a better type certainly for length-of-legs than our 'mascot' on the Club's web page "Lillian" - but due to circumstance, Lillian may have been crouching at photo time -- we just don't know for certain. The 2014 pullet from UK shows a better leg length as I understand the SOP.

As I see it -- the chickens that have been pieced out are close to SOP - and close to the chickens in the USA... or many of the Cream Legbars that we have now. There will always be 'room for improvement' and that is why it is called the 'standard of Perfection'. In theory, perfection is not attainable - it is the goal. To be a good breeder requires a definite vision. The VISION may be made, perhaps like puzzle pieces that will fit together -- the crest from this chicken would be so great if it had the comb of that chicken -- and that is one way to pick chickens to pair --

Thanks for reading through it all -- Please put in any thoughts that occur to you about the need for an alternative SOP to 'rescue' from oblivion those Cream Legbars that are more colorful.

DONE with the walk-thrus --

 

[caychris]

I have a question that never seems to be asked but seems to be complained about in a round about way,

What age do we consider a SOP bird to be? We all seem to be striving to paint our birds to a particular pallet but often find that the birds molt away from it later.
Is it really true that after the first adult molt the resulting color pallet is fixed? Or can they continue to change with each successive molt?

I wonder if and of the birds (regardless of breed) that approach SOP and are judged such then later after being bred because of the judging start deviating?

I have seen people lament a bird molting away from progress before reaching showing but I have seen little discussion of after and what challenges might arise from that. (or does it happen)

I guess Im thinking if it can happen before I would suppose it could happen after.

 

[chicken pickin]

A chicken is consider to have reached full maturity by 15-18 months when they have their first hard molt. From what I have read and heard from many serious breeder you should not make your final culling or breeding decisions until then because they change all the way up until that point. It is said hatching from a 2year old hen is the ideal age to start. Though I have not practiced this I plan to give it a try. I fully agree with this method because I have witnessed my own hens transform (for the better). I believe after they reach maturity they don't change much. I am also going to be starting to raise Heritage Barred Plymouth Rocks starting this year and this is a sloooooow maturing breed and take patience. So working with Rocks will allow me to slow it down, watch them mature and wait to hatch until they are fully mature. Im hoping this practice will help me do this with Legbars also.

 

[ChicKat]

I have a question that never seems to be asked but seems to be complained about in a round about way,

What age do we consider a SOP bird to be? We all seem to be striving to paint our birds to a particular pallet but often find that the birds molt away from it later.
Is it really true that after the first adult molt the resulting color pallet is fixed? Or can they continue to change with each successive molt?

I wonder if and of the birds (regardless of breed) that approach SOP and are judged such then later after being bred because of the judging start deviating?

I have seen people lament a bird molting away from progress before reaching showing but I have seen little discussion of after and what challenges might arise from that. (or does it happen)

I guess Im thinking if it can happen before I would suppose it could happen after.

caychris - this is such a good insight IMO -- especially with CLs. I was just looking at my 3-year old rooster and his crest is going pure WHITE at the very top. This is NOT SOP-worthy - but up to this point he wasn't I will try to get a photo later - because I have remarked a couple of times about my oldest two CLs 'turning gray'. (?anyone remember the gray pathers...LOL)----

Earlier I had called CLs a kaleidoscope, you turn a calendar page and they change. They change SO much--- I think the males far more than the females as they grow. Here is another quote that I find fascinating:

"Red in white Earlobes
Birds with perfect white lobes as they reach maturity for their first show season often have reddened patches on their lobes by the next summer. This is partly just age and their environment, it is perfectly saafe to keep them as breeders. It has been well known for well over a century that some breeds have a very short show life, but actually live as long as any other breed. ...." p 87
Exhibition Poultry keeping David Scrivener

So because I know my old guy had perfect earlobes as a youngster, I know he is a good breeder, but if I were to see him for the first time today -- I would wonder what his earlobe color was.
In the UK in the showing world - I got a term from Grant Brereton - editor of 'fancy fowl' magazine and author of lots of books - lots of them ebooks - He has a lot of expertise in poultry genetics (that's kind of an understatement I like LOL) - and he is a judge in UK.......... The term is "12 o'clock" There is a time when the bird is really at its prime and it is very evident -- and the shower would want to align that time for his/her birds with the particular show.......It could be done.
Here is a link to Grant Brereton's chapter from his book - Breeding for Success - He has made several sample chapters available on his site:
http://www.gbpoultry.com/Info_files/8 12o'clock PDF.pdf

I just had a bird tested that I thought had MG - and I was going to close my flock -- but the tests came back saying that the bird did NOT have MG. So I can continue to show. The Dr. at the TVMDL told me that many shows have birds that have MG because most birds/flocks have it. It can be completely without symptoms -- there would be no way for the flock owner to even know that his/her flock had it unless it was tested for. He gave me pointers on how to preserve this MG-free status and it is a high level of biosecurity. And most of us are eager to show our chicken owning friends our flocks - sometimes people with their own chickens or who have visited other chickens want to come in our pens. Do we go to a poultry show and then come home and walk in our pens? Taking a bird to a show is a definite risk. The list of biosecurity is long and it is almost the flip side of if you HAD a contageous disease you wanted to isolate... it is a high hurdle to jump. For that reason - I am keeping the 'show team' -- and these are the birds that can associate together in very close proximity (transport them all in just one pet carrier to the show, isolate them away from the rest of my birds upon return... I got good advice from our Club VP that it may be wise to give them a treatment upon return from a show etc.)---- So coming circle back to the point -- I will use this set of a cockerel and two hens for all the shows this year -- and maybe on-going -- and the rest of my flock will stay here.... I wont, most likely hatch to coordinate with show timing -- maybe at some point in the future.... So that is a real consideration for show birds--- and I didn't mean to soap box -- but it is a pretty big deal... I had no idea that respiratory diseases could reduce egg productivity and could reduce hatch rates. Some of the folks that in other threads were saying that they were disappointed with the hatch rates or the viability of the chicks - could have encountered a disease that could be passed from hen to chick. They test their incubators with eggs from other breeds and determine that it isn't the incubator and blame the entire breed. So here is another thing that we all should do to promote the breed and protect them -- from a 'bad name' -- as if someone would say 'Oh I had CLs but they would never hatch, hence it is a crummy breed'...etc. --

Plan for a show -- have your pullet POL for the show and the cockerel between 6 and 11-months so he can still get in the cockerel classification but look very roosterly --- it is an option -- and the way they look at that time according to SOP is the determiner....then your knowledge of your stock and your knowledge of the breed -- (and our help from our CL and BYC friends here) can help us determine which ones are the breeders for future chicks..... Do you have a rooster who produces great chicks but now that he is older and has red earlobes, you would think twice...naw he is fine... So basically in the cockerel and pullet classes for showing they won't have gone through their first molt. I have yet to see anyone who has shown Cream Legbars over 1-year old. Then they would go into the Cock/Hen age-group and have completed a molt..... For APA acceptance all 4 age-groups need to be shown. Again another indicator of the long-way we have to go--- but I suspect that a 13-month old male would look as good as an 11-month old - and still be in the adult age group.

That's a lot for a simple question/observation isn't it?

A chicken is consider to have reached full maturity by 15-18 months when they have their first hard molt. From what I have read and heard from many serious breeder you should not make your final culling or breeding decisions until then because they change all the way up until that point. It is said hatching from a 2year old hen is the ideal age to start. Though I have not practiced this I plan to give it a try. I fully agree with this method because I have witnessed my own hens transform (for the better). I believe after they reach maturity they don't change much. I am also going to be starting to raise Heritage Barred Plymouth Rocks starting this year and this is a sloooooow maturing breed and take patience. So working with Rocks will allow me to slow it down, watch them mature and wait to hatch until they are fully mature. Im hoping this practice will help me do this with Legbars also.

That is going to be sooo interesting....Grant Brereton says that too about selecting the best eggs from your 2-year old hens -- we are all in a hurry here --

. The other worry that I have is that something would 'get' my flock and I would loose the genetics that I am building -- I think a gene bank would be so nice -- were off site someone could raise YOUR chickens and if you got hit by predator, disease, natural disaster -- etc...at least you wouldn't start from ground zero. I have tried that with my flock -- and if anyone wants hatching eggs from me -- PM me -- because I would like other repositories in the country - because what if a predator got the ones in my 'gene bank'? -- and they are females out there not the males....

Mine lighten with age, and i have a cockerel out there hatched in Sept that had crooked comb that is now getting straighter. Didn't think that would/could happen....to the degree that is has.

 

[chicken pickin]

That is going to be sooo interesting....Grant Brereton says that too about selecting the best eggs from your 2-year old hens -- we are all in a hurry here --

. The other worry that I have is that something would 'get' my flock and I would loose the genetics that I am building -- I think a gene bank would be so nice -- were off site someone could raise YOUR chickens and if you got hit by predator, disease, natural disaster -- etc...at least you wouldn't start from ground zero. I have tried that with my flock -- and if anyone wants hatching eggs from me -- PM me -- because I would like other repositories in the country - because what if a predator got the ones in my 'gene bank'? -- and they are females out there not the males....

Mine lighten with age, and i have a cockerel out there hatched in Sept that had crooked comb that is now getting straighter. Didn't think that would/could happen....to the degree that is has.

I here many breeders say partners in breeding are a MUST. For one you can raise twice as many birds with out twice as much work. If you find a partner you trust and is as serious as you are, then having this partner within a few hours driving distance is wonderful. You would share the share same line and you can continue to work on the birds together, share pullets cockerels etc if you are in need of a bird with certain qualities. This also comes in extremely handy if you were to have a predator attack and loose all your breeding stock. You partner can set you right back up with a breeding trio or quad etc of your own line, so your set back would be minimal.

 

[chicken pickin]

I just had a bird tested that I thought had MG - and I was going to close my flock -- but the tests came back saying that the bird did NOT have MG. So I can continue to show. The Dr. at the TVMDL told me that many shows have birds that have MG because most birds/flocks have it. It can be completely without symptoms -- there would be no way for the flock owner to even know that his/her flock had it unless it was tested for. He gave me pointers on how to preserve this MG-free status and it is a high level of biosecurity. And most of us are eager to show our chicken owning friends our flocks - sometimes people with their own chickens or who have visited other chickens want to come in our pens. Do we go to a poultry show and then come home and walk in our pens? Taking a bird to a show is a definite risk. The list of biosecurity is long and it is almost the flip side of if you HAD a contageous disease you wanted to isolate... it is a high hurdle to jump. For that reason - I am keeping the 'show team' -- and these are the birds that can associate together in very close proximity (transport them all in just one pet carrier to the show, isolate them away from the rest of my birds upon return... I got good advice from our Club VP that it may be wise to give them a treatment upon return from a show etc.)---- So coming circle back to the point -- I will use this set of a cockerel and two hens for all the shows this year -- and maybe on-going -- and the rest of my flock will stay here.... I wont, most likely hatch to coordinate with show timing -- maybe at some point in the future.... So that is a real consideration for show birds--- and I didn't mean to soap box -- but it is a pretty big deal... I had no idea that respiratory diseases could reduce egg productivity and could reduce hatch rates. Some of the folks that in other threads were saying that they were disappointed with the hatch rates or the viability of the chicks - could have encountered a disease that could be passed from hen to chick. They test their incubators with eggs from other breeds and determine that it isn't the incubator and blame the entire breed. So here is another thing that we all should do to promote the breed and protect them -- from a 'bad name' -- as if someone would say 'Oh I had CLs but they would never hatch, hence it is a crummy breed'...etc. --



This is such great information. Many chicken owners do not think about disease in their flock or know what to do to help prevent disease in their flocks. I myself try to practice good biosecurity. As much as I want to show off my chickens, I DO NOT allow anyone inside my chicken or turkey yards besides my immediate family. Any customers that come to my house to buy eggs, chicks, poults, or even adult poultry are not allowed on my property and must stay at the bottom of my driveway and no further. If my family goes to a farm or chicken show or anywhere chickens turkeys and ducks are when we return home all family member must disinfect their shoes and change clothes.

As for the eggs and hatchability, yes disease can cause fertility and hatching problems with in a flock. But I would like to note not always, I am NH NPIP certified they come out and do an inspection and test them annually and I do have a bird from each coop(6-7 coops) randomly selected and tested for MG. My birds test results have always come back negative. I still seem to have CL hatching problems. Im hoping this year is a better hatching year and maybe last year was just a fluke. I did do a lot of hatching in my home made incubator maybe my temps were off. I want to add that I do not think CL are a crummy breed

I think everyone should take a little time to read up on poultry diseases and how to practice good biosecurity. It might do a world of wonders.

Edited to add Im very happy to hear your test results came back negative