Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[sol2go]

**waving frantically from the sidelines** I am definately interested in the Alternative SOP for Cream Legbars. I think Cream Legbars are pretty, but I LOVE the 'Crele' Alternative....

you got my attention

 

[dretd]

Quote:
Sorry for having abandoned the discussion, I have had some unfortunate life 'stuff' come up that took my attention away.

I would like to pull the discussion back to your thoughts that Cream and Crele are the same. I respectfully disagree, however I also do think that non-Cream Cream Legbars are still Cream Legbars can have a place within the breed especially if we decide not to break off a non Cream variety.

From my point of view, Cream Legbars are meant to be a diluted form of the barred gold color pattern commonly called Crele. So All Cream Legbars are technically diluted Crele but not all Crele birds are Cream. I believe that since Punnett was a geneticist and was studying the genetic variations in colors, when called the Silver Legbar silver, he was referring to the genetic variation within the pattern that the gene silver made--the genotype. Gold was the base color and thus the Gold Legbar was called gold because of its genetic base. The culture clash comes about because there is no cage side genetics test when judging poultry, so the judges go by the phenotype of the bird they are seeing. Does it look like what it says it is? If so than it passes muster even if it lacks the specific gene that is the calling card of the breed. The APA judges are not an expert in any particular breed (unless they own or breed that bird), they rely on guidance from the breeders and breed clubs to represent the breeds ideals in the show ring for them to judge and learn from.

This dichotomy on how the birds are viewed (genotype vs phenotype) seems to be the root of the problem in many discussions. Personally, I would prefer to get my flock to be ig/ig ie genetically cream. A breeder can breed look-alikes by varying the ratios of the inherent red, black and white in the bird to look very, very similar to cream yet not be cream. Or perhaps add another gene in that also looks like cream, such as Silver. As has been pointed out many times, Silver and Cream can look the same (although they don't always) and it can be difficult to tell the difference between the two (although not always). I am not sure how I would feel about someone intentionally breeding Silver into the color mix of a gold-tinted Cream Legbar to make the bird phenotypically Cream. The judge would likely not have a problem with it since it looks right, but in my mind that breaks the intended 'spirit' of the breed.

I have only been playing with the colors for about a year and am coming to understand what ig/ig vs Ig/?g looks like in my flock. I have come to the conclusion that there are Ig/?g Cream Legbars readily available based on how the birds have produced gold-tinted birds and cream tinted birds in my flock with test matings, and also by looking at other examples of Crele coloration in similar breeds, most notably the Welbar. The barring gene has a much greater influence on the overall look of the bird than Cream, IMO. I have also found there are some birds that are particularly hard to figure out if they carry two copies of the Cream gene and express cream because of the interplay of the melanizers and the reds.

Apples to apples, an example of the influence of barring on e+...
Here is the Welbar winner from GB next to my Welummer Cockerel:


What a huge difference in color between these two and its just that the one on the left is barred and the one an the right is not.

And the differences between equally barred birds with and without dilution from ig-- Welbar left, the Winning GB Cream Legbar left-middle, a saturated ig/ig (expressing cream) male from my flock right, and two non-cream male from my flock (below):






The Webar should be an undiluted Crele and the Cream Legbars should be a diluted Crele. Spot the differences? They are pretty subtle.

1)Chestnut quality and intensity: All of the above roosters are fairly well saturated meaning lots of black and I am seeing red in all the Cream Legbars but the quality of the red in the Cream is muted--more of a chest-nutty brownish color whereas the undiluted Welbar and non-diluted Legbars have a very reddish orangy rusty shoulder.
2)Saddle color: Welbar golden, Cream Legbar cream. My Cream boy has a rich cream saddle with maybe a hint of chestnut whereas the Welbar has a gold saddle, undiluted Legbars match the gold in the Welbar
3)The Wing triangles with and without gold: the Cream version of Crele is white (and grey) whereas the Welbar is white and gold (and grey). The non-diluted Legbar has gold present.
4)Hackle color: There is a subtle difference in the predominantly white hackles of the birds, the Welbar has a warmer golden overtone more obvious at the nape of the neck, whereas the Cream Legbars have a barely perceptible off-white/creamy/pale lemony color (it is more apparent in mine in person and hard to capture on film). The non-diluted Legbars also have gold tinting there but it tends to fade as the birds mature IMO.

I can see your point that there is no difference because it is pretty subtle. But once I started looking at my flock critically I could for sure see a difference and it is real and it has become much easier to spot especially in person as pictures are not really representative.

More comparison of the gold-tinted boys vs the cream boys from my flock:

Again the undiluted Welbar (left) for another comparison next to a side by side non-diluted (middle) and diluted (right) from my flock (excuse the missing points, mother nature dubbed them in the polar vortex) the bottom picture with two side by side--I'm not labeling dilute and non-dilute because it should be obvious

):



To my eye, the one I am identifying as non-diluted Cream Legbar matches the Welbar's coloration more closely than he matches the diluted Cream Legbar. My non-dilute boy is not as 'dark' meaning he has fewer melanizers than the Welbar as evidenced by the medium tone of his grey breast.

For me, I really do believe that there is enough difference between the Welbar and the Cream Legbar that once you see the differences, they become more apparent. I also think that there are plenty examples of non-diluted Cream Legbars out there--I certainly have them in my flock and yes I still consider them Cream Legbars-- just not ideal examples of the breed. For emphasis, the Welbar is non-diluted yet a portion of my Legbars match his color very well which leads me to believe that there are indeed non-diluted versions of Cream Legbars in the population.

So the big question for y'all is does it matter if the birds are ig/ig or not? Its a valid question as one could just as easily toss my point of view that Cream means a genetic state and go off of a definition of the color cream being a pale buttery color even if that color is made with the gold color pallette and modified with less black and less red instead of starting with cream as the color in the tube you are painting with.

Honestly, I suspect what has happened is that over the years breeders have been trying to match the breed standard (this is after the breed had to be reinvigorated by unknown outcrossings) and if they are lacking ig/ig, they have been removing red and black from the gene pool to make the birds appear more cream-like. Unfortunately this has resulted over many years in over-diluted birds that also do not match the standard (see Cumberbatch below). Now that Cream Legbars are becoming more popular in Great Britain, the breeders are becoming more experienced in both reading the breed standard and in the skill of breeding birds, the pendulum is swinging back and the Cream Legbar is looking less overall diluted/monochromatic and more like a the diluted crele it should be (based on my interpretation of the breed standard and on what a genetically dilute crele should theoretically look like) as evidenced by the most recent winning cockerel in Great Britain.

A few side comments.
-Emily de Grey had commented on FB in response to the above pictured cockerel, that her view of the standard has changed over time and that she used to favor the light cock birds but that she now thinks that the pictured bird more accurately represents the breed (paraphrased).
-Also on the FB conversation, Jill Rees thought that this bird was a very good example of the breed but she thought the picture portrayed him as darker than he is in real life.
-I think that the Cream Legbar (both diluted and undiluted) is a very complicated breed and there are a lot of background interactions between different genes that modify one another that we don't yet (and may never) understand.
-There is a lot of confusion when talking to one another about what too colorful means ie between birds that are lacking ig/ig and 'too colorful' as in gold and those birds that are ig/ig but have chestnut and maximum melanization and thus look dark, and also birds that are lacking ig/ig but have very little red and very light melanization making them appear 'lighter' than an ig/ig bird. It can be tough to tell in some cases for sure. Some fold say that a bird is too colorful meaning has too much chestnut and others will think that they mean he is too dark or that he is non-diluted. It can be very confusing and creates a lot of cross-talk.

More food for thought on the unexpected combinations that crop up in my flock Cumberbatch ig/ig (left) plus Beatrix Ig/?g (center) equals right cockerel (Ig/ig)


Cumberbatch is very, very light and doesn't meet breed color standards even though he is ig/ig. When crossed with Beatrix an obviously lacking cream girl, I get this roo (all roosters from this cross look roughly the same) who I would describe as being medium intensity melanization and obviously non-ig/ig based on the richness of the gold present in his hackle, saddle, wing triangle and also the brightness of the red-orange tint in the chestnut on his wing. I would consider him 'lighter' than the cream cockerel I posted above' yet he is gold-tinted/non-cream. What surprised me the most about this pairing is that Cumberbatch has very little chestnut--just a few smudges, and Beatrix has very little red on her throat and very little red on her wings showing through, yet all of the boys are pretty well saturated in red on the wings so it obviously is recessive or being influenced by other unknown genes. I would have expected a much less colorful cockerel both in terms of red and in terms of grey.

So for me, I actually do feel there is a place for the Welbar-looking non-diluted Crele Legbar although there may be a better description to be had. As FMP had pointed out, there is already a Crele pattern/variety described by the APA and it is much more richly colored than the Legbars' color and pattern. If we chose a difference name than the genetic Crele, perhaps it would help to avoid preconceived notions in viewing the bird and assist its acceptance.

 

[ChicKat]

Wow -- thanks dretd for the well thought out discussion addition and the excellent photos to reinforce the points.

Much of what you say is superb and I agree, some of it is irrefutable.

Two points that I disagree with - that I want to put up before too much time goes by are 1. - the SOP is a genetic description. On this point, eventhough Punnett was a geneticist - I don't think that can swap out how the SOPs work.. Instead of genetic formulae - IMO they are appearance descriptions. 2. The example of the WelBar that won in the UK show this year -- may easily be on the light side. IMO barring doesn't lighten the gold-crele to the degree a Cream Legbar is light. I think that this year's UK Welbar winner is overly light - just as the 2012 winner was for Cream Legbar. However there are other qualities in the chicken that are far more important than the color -such as type -- and I suspect that both Jill's 2012 winner and this year's Welbar were the best in type for their breed and hence both deserved their winnings. Sadly - I think we get too far into color and ignore type at present.

Here is what I would consider a better example of a Welbar COLOR:


This is from Britanica Rare Breeds

http://www.britannicrarebreeds.co.uk/breedinfo/chicken_welbar.php

I don't know that any of your CLs reach that degree of gold-crele...but it is a close match to the guildline I use of the Gold Crele Leghorn --

If the Cream Gene is recessive - it should kind of look like this guy if it is missing or only 1 copy. There are as you say other things going on that we either don't know now or may never know

Welbar cock-bird above is very close to appearance of 100% gold. It is also possible that the Welbar pictured in the UK that won could have been a silver welbar.... Here is a Silver Welbar from Australia:

I think I especially appreciate the train of thought that you open up with the examples of the cockerel that is the result of Cumberbach and Beatrix.

Thanks!!

ETA - the Welbar females I see photos of are close matches to the Gold Crele Leghorn female in the image of 100% gold

This is my idea of a gold pullet -- and I think a closer hackle to the 100% gold appearance on the chart.
source:http://www.harislau.info/welbars


Here is a Cream Legbar origination story that omits Punnett this is from britanica rare breeds site listed above --
AKA Crested Legbar
The Cream Legbar has a different parentage to the Gold and Silver varieties, differing from the original Legbar in being created with the addition of the Araucana, leading to the production of blue eggs.
Cream Legbars were created accidentally in 1939 by Michael Peace who was trying to improve the productivity of the original Gold Legbar by crossing with a utility white leghorn. Two off-white pullets from this crossing were kept and bred to a Gold Legbar cockerel. From the offspring of this mating one of the cockerels produced cream coloured chicks. The male and female chicks were noticeably different in colour. These cream coloured birds were in turn bred to cream Araucanas owned by Professor Punnett. In time,The Cream Legbar a crested, blue egg laying, auto-sexing, breed was selected.
The crest is a tuft of feathers on the crest of the head behind the comb and is a feature derived from the Araucana.
The breed was standardised by the Poultry Club of Great Britain in 1958.
They are now the most common auto sexing breed and widely used by hobbyists for their blue eggs. Unfortunately the colour of the egg varies from pale green to pale blue depending on strain. Careful selection for high production and an even pale blue egg is required. Good shaped pale blue eggs such as seen in many bred for exhibition birds does not necessarily mean prolific egg laying ability!

 

[dretd]

,
Two points that I disagree with - that I want to put up before too much time goes by are 1. - the SOP is a genetic description. On this point, eventhough Punnett was a geneticist - I don't think that can swap out how the SOPs work.. Instead of genetic formulae - IMO they are appearance descriptions. 2. The example of the WelBar that won in the UK show this year -- may easily be on the light side. IMO barring doesn't lighten the gold-crele to the degree a Cream Legbar is light. I think that this year's UK Welbar winner is overly light - just as the 2012 winner was for Cream Legbar. However there are other qualities in the chicken that are far more important than the color -such as type -- and I suspect that both Jill's 2012 winner and this year's Welbar were the best in type for their breed and hence both deserved their winnings. Sadly - I think we get too far into color and ignore type at present.

Here is what I would consider a better example of a Welbar COLOR:


This is from Britanica Rare Breeds


Welbar cock-bird above is very close to appearance of 100% gold. It is also possible that the Welbar pictured in the UK that won could have been a silver welbar.... Here is a Silver Welbar from Australia:

Hi Chickat, thanks for taking the time to read my notes and also for your comments!

I realize that the APA and in showing the judge has to go by what the bird looks like. I think my point is that Punnett discovered a new gene back in the day that he had not seen before. Through genetic experimentation, it was determined to be a recessive gene that was different than the dominant Silver gene, but that they both act similarly to inhibit the expression of gold coloration in the feathers. They decided to develop a breed based on the specific color genetics they were seeing that seemed to be unique.

The difficulty that I have with going strictly off phenotype is that you can have a bird that appears to be Cream yet doesn't actually carry two copies of the cream gene. A-ok for the show ring, but when you try using him for breeding, because he lacks the correct genetic makeup for the breed, his offspring may be all over the map and it may be hard to reproduce him because he is not genetically cream, he just looks cream. I think this is why it is so important for me to do the proper genetic trials in my own flock and get to a group of birds as breeders that pass their traits reliably to their offspring. So far the gold-tint and cream color variations in my flock are following the expected inheritance patterns for a recessive gene. Even if I just go by colors in my flock, I really don't want to have to deal with some birds looking like Cumberbatch, some like his gold-tint boy and yet others looking like the other boy I posted next to the National Show winner that is in between the two. I hope that I will be able to reliably get my flock stabilized to look like the latter over time. My perception is that he is ig/ig but saturated in black and moderate red. SO 'colorful' yet Cream, not golden.

NIcalandia once had said that he was thinking of recreating the Ceram Legbar only using Silver as the dilutor. To me, using Silver instead of Cream as the dilutor would make the bird not really a Cream Legbar although it would look like one. That is my opinion, and if one goes strictly by phenotypes, then silver would be perfectly fine to use in a pinch since they can look the same (but not always). Since its easier to work with silver than the recessive cream....what is your opinion on this approach to breeding Cream Legbars?

The Welbar photo from the magazine was labeled as Bantam Welbar and it did not occur to me that it might be a Silver Welbar. Judging by the amount of gold in the saddle, I could see one copy of silver certainly as a possibility, but really would have a very hard time believing he has two copies. I have done some experimentation with crossbreeding including Silver and that is what I have based my opinion on. If you look at the little of the saddle on the Silver Welbar Cock from Ausralia, it is very pale to white, which I would expect with two copies of Silver and it does look much more diluted than the Bantam Welbar pictured IMO

Since you righty pointed out that my assumption that the Welbar boy is non-diluted may not be valid, I have emailed a breeder in Great Britain who lists having both Welbars and Cream Legbars and who has photos up on their website of each breed. His Welbar photos resemble that one from the magazine, so I hope that he has the time to get back to me with more information about his Welbars and whether that color is S/S, S/s, or s/s, or if he even knows. There is a dearth of information out there on them and the photos that are pulled up on google searches are not consistent at all.

Not sure what to make of that Welbar cockerel from the Britanica rare breed other than to say that he looks a little rough around the edges

My goal with looking at the more colorful gold-tinted Cream Legbars as a separate variety was to try to let everyone get to breed the birds that make them happy and to try to get the breed more inclusive, not more divisive. If the bulk of folks think that having the broad color range all under one roof is the best for the breed, then that is what will end up happening.

One serious problem with having a wide color range is that it makes the breed less consistent and will make a challenging pattern even harder to control. This is why sage advisors from the APA recommend that novice breeders start with a solid colored variety of any breed. Who knows maybe the White CL variety will take off for that very reason. I have my own interpretation of the SOP and am striving to breed to that goal. Its quite an uphill battle with the inherent challenges of a barred diluted breed with a single comb and crest. And that doesn't even consider the additional profound challenges of having 4 different strains (that may or may not have been stable in England) being imported to the US, having gone through major disease challenges, then comingled together in every backyard, and then having brother-sister pairings propagate when the new breeders unite the chicks that came from single source hatching eggs. How many times have we seen a new breeder say that they hatched out eggs and will start selling eggs as soon as the chickens start laying? Yikes, its a wonder the breed is doing as well as it is in the US!

 

[ChicKat]

Hey there Dr. E --
We are both on at one time....

Regarding:
NIcalandia once had said that he was thinking of recreating the Cream Legbar only using Silver as the dilutor. To me, using Silver instead of Cream as the dilutor would make the bird not really a Cream Legbar although it would look like one. That is my opinion, and if one goes strictly by phenotypes, then silver would be perfectly fine to use in a pinch since they can look the same (but not always). Since its easier to work with silver than the recessive cream....what is your opinion on this approach to breeding Cream Legbars?

as I recall we were all aghast at nicalandia's idea of how to get a show-ring right CL - and thinking - as you said -- that isn't really the bird.

Back then I thought that silver was completely dominant over gold -- and all the CLs we were working with were s+/s+. Subsequently, I learned that Silver isn't completly dominant as Ki4got explained a few posts back where I lifted some of her genetic stuff.... Subsequently I heard that that some of the CL breeding in UK had possibly crossed sliver's in to their plans to increase the size etc. As a result - just as you say, we don't know what is the make up of the CL based upon the appearance.

Here is quote from Ki4got:

And rather than completely dominant, Silver is as Ki4got pointed out from her research a few posts back --> quote
Silver (S) - sex-linked incompletely dominant, turns red to white in roosters and turns brown to grey and lightens the salmon breast (when present) in hens.

end quote

Then seeing that Punnett's crossing with a RIR:
I thought that this could shed some insight to my detection of my roosters true S-locus. Here is something interesting Punnett did.

"...By happy chance a silver Light Sussex [female] was found which on mating with a cream [male] gave only silver [males] and cream [females]. Such [males] must be silver on cream, and one of them mated back to cream [females] gave silvers and creams of both sexes. A silver hen from this mating (i.e. silver on cream) was mated with a gold Rhode Island Red [male]. If silver, gold and cream form an alleomorphic series in the sex chromosome the [males] from this mating should receive silver from their mother and gold from their father, i.e. cream from neither parent. Hence such [males] mated to cream [females] should give silvers and golds of both sexes but no creams. Actually this mating gave 13 silvers, 9 golds and 8 creams, both sexes being represented in each colour class. Clearly this disproves the hypothesis of an alleomorphoc series in the sex chromosome. But the figures accord reasonably well with the assumption of two independent alleomorphic pairs where expectations would be silvers, golds, and creams in the ratio 2:1:1. * "

Punnett's asterisk pertains to this:
"* While this experiment was in progress I learned from Mr. M.S.Pease that he had obtained the following evidence telling against the supposition of a multiple alleomorphic series. A gold hen hen mated with a cream cock gave golds and creams of both sexes. On the supposition of multiple alleomorphs one would have expected all the male chicks to be gold and the females to be cream. "

It leads me to wonder a bit at a number of things that have been said about the coloration. -- KPenley suggested that the above research may have been done by the UK equivalent of Grad Assistants -- but I still think that Punnett having it published in a genetic journal under his name would have automatically had an alarm go off in his genetically trained mind if the information was in-accurate.

I also heard of someone or other getting some day-olds from GFF that were JR line birds and being disappointed because they thought that they had gotten 'gold' - So I think that it would in the long run be more beneficial to have one umbrella over the definitely recognizable bird - and move forward as one variety. Not splitting out a 'more colorful' variety is also the advice that came from an APA judge.

 

[ChicKat]

Okay -- we were walking-thru the Female SOP and had gotten as far as crest.

for the record I think that this example from Chicken Pickin is what the SOP is describing - and it doesn't reflect my flock at all -- :O( But I can sure acknowledge that it is a pretty crest.


Now, if I were a judge or a critique - I would tell this beautiful pullet to work on her salmon a little. ;O)

 

[chicken pickin]

Thanks @ChicKat . I like this pullet also and have been excited about her. Unfortunately I think she might be a cull from my breeding pen and will likely join the layer flock, she is the one that to me has a poor head quality. But I still have some reading and research to do before I make my final decision.

And luckily as she matures she has been working on her salmon coloring and its brightening up.

 

[ChicKat]

continuing Discussion Female SOP

Beautiful Cream and Gray in Post 416 above


Color - Female

Head: Plumage, cream and gray.
Crest: Cream and gray, some chestnut permissible.
Neck: Hackle—cream, softly barred gray.
Front of neck—salmon.

Shape - Female

Head: Medium size, symmetrical, well balanced, and of fine quality

Neck: Long and well covered with hackle

Both UK examples - are good examples of what is described in SOP in my view ---

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks @ChicKat . I like this pullet also and have been excited about her. Unfortunately I think she might be a cull from my breeding pen and will likely join the layer flock, she is the one that to me has a poor head quality. But I still have some reading and research to do before I make my final decision.

And luckily as she matures she has been working on her salmon coloring and its brightening up.

She really did didn't she. What a beautiful pullet!! Yes you must cull her from your breeding program Instantly....You must put her in a box, you must send her to me...look deep into my eyes you are getting sleepy - when you awaken you will mail away your pullet.

Kidding - only kidding.... She is nice - and in your layer flock- you could always pull her back to your breeding pen if you decided to. I had one that I put in layer ranks and then realized that she has a couple of traits that would make my rooster team better. My dismissal of her was because she showed too much 'gold' -- And guess what ....her son was the one that the judge said he ranked lowest of my three at the show because he was looking lightest (faded) - so her too gold-ness didn't pass to his generation. LOL --

Keep us apprised - I see she still has a bit of growing to do. When you say head quality -- you are thinking it should be more rounded? I'm curious. Thanks for posting. It always amazes me how they change as they grow.

 

[chicken pickin]

Yes her head to me since she was very young looked "off" I guess from the other CL. her face and beak seem long to me and her eye set in an odd place. Garydean recently sent me an illustration of good/poor heads with my pullets head inserted into the illustration. The chart had 4 areas to look at while measuring for good head quality. She seems to fall into 2 good spots and 2 poor spots. He also sent me a link to a book to read that talks about Breeding and culling by head points, I still need to look it over. I haven't made a final decision on her but I would hate to pass a poor quality head on to future generations.