Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Since this thread is for the discussion of the AOV legbars, here is a pic of a rose combed 'colored' legbar pullet

 

[ChicKat]

Since this thread is for the discussion of the AOV legbars, here is a pic of a rose combed 'colored' legbar pullet

That one is a winner too - right? - too bad for back-lighting - but the barring is clear in her underside and on her tail as the faint-barring called for. Nice tail too -

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

That one is a winner too - right? - too bad for back-lighting - but the barring is clear in her underside and on her tail as the faint-barring called for. Nice tail too -

The single combed pullet was the winner along with the cockerel. I'm going to try to post a rose combed cockerel on rare breed auctions soon. I thought there was another person working on the rose combed legbars but haven't heard anything from them and the people I sold birds to locally just mixed them up. As of right now, I am still the only person (that I know of) that is working with them and I really want to get other people with them just in case something happens like a predator attack or something.

 

[ChicKat]

The single combed pullet was the winner along with the cockerel. I'm going to try to post a rose combed cockerel on rare breed auctions soon. I thought there was another person working on the rose combed legbars but haven't heard anything from them and the people I sold birds to locally just mixed them up. As of right now, I am still the only person (that I know of) that is working with them and I really want to get other people with them just in case something happens like a predator attack or something.

I'm the same way with my flock. Kind of like a gene bank. Have you considered having some raised by 4H participants?

Here is a thought about the OEGB vs. the CL type of barring. Just as Barred Plymouth Rock and any of the cuckoo breeds are very different in appearance not due to the barring gene but rather due to the addition of the slow feathering gene in the BPR (K) -- both OEGB and CL could be crele - and the way it presents is influenced by yet another gene. --

So just like OEGB have (is it white) legs(indicating different genetics make up), the crele-ness is the same genetically for the e+ and B/ or B/B - but it manifests in a different way - the presentation is controlled by other factors.
ETA put in some clarifications so it makes more sense.

 

[ChicKat]

here is one reason why I think the coloration of the yellow legs may have a long-term effect on the results of our (working title)'crele' or 'tri-colored' Legbar SOP. The effects of autosomal red change the color of light feathering. -- Beta Carotene in the diet changes the color of the plumage. (I experienced this to a degree between molts)--- Beta Carotene may have an effect on the color of the eggs -- you may need scientific equipment to actually determine the change - but there is a sea bird study that shows color variation.

Going back to the example Lillian - the very bright yellow-orange of the legs could be indicative of - 1. highly color saturated photo, 2. something in the diet that makes the color darker and of course 3. something genetic.

Some feeds have added supplements, some flocks have more access to free-range. If the warmness of the color is partially due to diet, then of course the 'tell' wouldn't necessarially indicate another variety.

There is another track to consider -- the effect of autosomal RED - once again the variety could be the same - but autosomal red could be influencing the plumage. See article link of first post in this thread: written by Grant Brereton http://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/the-other-type-of-gold-red

here is a shot of a SILVER Duckwing - which you would expect to look pure black and white...
.
once again -here with even silver genetics, the color is what we would visually say is 'gold' - and so other genetic factors influence the degree of red that is expressed in a chicken. Were we to discover that the reds - independent of the S-Locus - ETA meant to say 'recessive cream' ig/ig* - were making the female plumage the warm color - it wouldn't be, necessarily a different variety. I guess this is another reason why one can't tell by the hackles alone.

Maybe dretd can weigh in on the effects of autosomal red on the ground color - if it is something that would change the gary...when she stops by the thread..or anyone with insights on this...could share their view.

*part of the assumption for a need for additional SOP is that there are a number of Legbars that we think of as Cream Legbars that are lacking the genetic ig/ig - which needs a bit of conclusive proof for several reasons....we are working with the assumption that the new SOP will refer to varieties of legbar that do not have ig/ig -- should have stated that in post one -- in fact...I think I will go back and add it.

 

[ChicKat]

Not a great photo, but here is one example of a cockerel that could fit in a Crele standard. Note the richness of his gold saddle and overall the enhanced melanization as compared to Cream:

Here is a place also to collect photographs of the variance between the hackle and saddle feathers...and collect close ups of both. This cockerel resembles moe closely the crele that the OEGB has on some ways...

BTW, I also googled Crele Leghorn and here are some images that came up:



the last one being a silver crele Leghorn as denoted by the white (silver) wing triangle.



some real color variation, some food for thought.....

and of course the artist rendering of gold crele and silver crele leghorns



and I am struck by how closely the above image resembles this cockerel:

 

[GaryDean26]

here is one reason why I think the coloration of the yellow legs may have a long-term effect on the results of our (working title)'crele' or 'tri-colored' Legbar SOP. The effects of autosomal red change the color of light feathering. -- Beta Carotene in the diet changes the color of the plumage. (I experienced this to a degree between molts)--- Beta Carotene may have an effect on the color of the eggs -- you may need scientific equipment to actually determine the change - but there is a sea bird study that shows color variation.

Going back to the example Lillian - the very bright yellow-orange of the legs could be indicative of - 1. highly color saturated photo, 2. something in the diet that makes the color darker and of course 3. something genetic.

Some feeds have added supplements, some flocks have more access to free-range. If the warmness of the color is partially due to diet, then of course the 'tell' wouldn't necessarially indicate another variety.

There is another track to consider -- the effect of autosomal RED - once again the variety could be the same - but autosomal red could be influencing the plumage. See article link of first post in this thread: written by Grant Brereton http://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/the-other-type-of-gold-red

here is a shot of a SILVER Duckwing - which you would expect to look pure black and white...
.
once again -here with even silver genetics, the color is what we would visually say is 'gold' - and so other genetic factors influence the degree of red that is expressed in a chicken. Were we to discover that the reds - independent of the S-Locus - ETA meant to say 'recessive cream' ig/ig* - were making the female plumage the warm color - it wouldn't be, necessarily a different variety. I guess this is another reason why one can't tell by the hackles alone.

Maybe dretd can weigh in on the effects of autosomal red on the ground color - if it is something that would change the gary...when she stops by the thread..or anyone with insights on this...could share their view.

*part of the assumption for a need for additional SOP is that there are a number of Legbars that we think of as Cream Legbars that are lacking the genetic ig/ig - which needs a bit of conclusive proof for several reasons....we are working with the assumption that the new SOP will refer to varieties of legbar that do not have ig/ig -- should have stated that in post one -- in fact...I think I will go back and add it.

Here is the Class Campion from the same show.

 

[dretd]

Just a couple of thoughts about this process. I would not be supportive of the Colorful Variety SOP taking on and trying to change any part of the Cream Legbar SOP with regard to type.

Sure we can look at individual birds, like Lillian, and criticize her for having short legs, but we really must realize this is one photograph of one bird, not a perfect example of the breed. She might be squatting in the photo. She might have exceptionally fluffy feathering making her legs appear short. The camera angle may be off somehow. There are many factors that may make her not represent reality. She also might have legs shorter than ideal for the breed. She is not the Legbar ideal, just one award-winning example of the breed. Just becasue she has legs in this photo that appear shorter than standard does not mean that all Legbars should or that we need to somehow alter the wording of the SOP at this time to make it clear that she is not the ideal.

The BREED is Legbar and the type SOP is identical in all varieties. I believe that the Board approval was to concentrate on seeing the viability and interest in developing other color varieties of the Legbar Breed. The type discussions and any alterations will remain with the SOP committee. I think it is really smart of us to have all the varieties under the umbrella of the Cream Legbar Club so that the Legbar will remain unified and there will be total consistency in type between all the varieties. If we did not do this, we would eventually have a complete mess on our hands!

 

[ChicKat]

Just a couple of thoughts about this process. I would not be supportive of the Colorful Variety SOP taking on and trying to change any part of the Cream Legbar SOP with regard to type.

Sure we can look at individual birds, like Lillian, and criticize her for having short legs, but we really must realize this is one photograph of one bird, not a perfect example of the breed. She might be squatting in the photo. She might have exceptionally fluffy feathering making her legs appear short. The camera angle may be off somehow. There are many factors that may make her not represent reality. She also might have legs shorter than ideal for the breed. She is not the Legbar ideal, just one award-winning example of the breed. Just becasue she has legs in this photo that appear shorter than standard does not mean that all Legbars should or that we need to somehow alter the wording of the SOP at this time to make it clear that she is not the ideal.

The BREED is Legbar and the type SOP is identical in all varieties. I believe that the Board approval was to concentrate on seeing the viability and interest in developing other color varieties of the Legbar Breed. The type discussions and any alterations will remain with the SOP committee. I think it is really smart of us to have all the varieties under the umbrella of the Cream Legbar Club so that the Legbar will remain unified and there will be total consistency in type between all the varieties. If we did not do this, we would eventually have a complete mess on our hands!

This is a very good insight...
This also (as we talk about colors and varieties) gives a chance to walk through the SOP -- as recently as last Saturday, we had someone who didn't know that the male CL should be crested, and hence was not looking for that in their breeding pen, so I think that a review with pictures and discussion is a very good thing.

Lillian's reference was a springboard from a judge's comment that some SOP wording is a bit of a sliding category...it wasn't meant to say based on Lillian the SOP should be changed. Thanks for the insights.

 

[ChicKat]

Will you look at this!!!

researching something else and came across this post from GaryDean26---

The Leghorn is a fast feather breed [k+/k+]. My understanding is that the Legbar should be a fast feather breed too (SOP committee correct me if I am wrong). For clearly defined barring you need a slow feather breed like the Plymouth Rock. So no, I don't think I would call this clearly defined barring. I don't know which is required in the SOP though but am guesing the fast feathered birds are the ideal for the Legbar and that the fine barring of the Plymought Rock is not required..

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/713115/cream-legbar-working-group-standard-of-perfection/1160 --post 1161


So we know (and have known) that the BPR type barring is different from Legbar's -- One question I have about Legbar's hackles, they seem as tight as BPRs' is that just a characteristic of the way hackle-feathers grow --(i.e. slow - as opposed to tail feathers that seem to grow very quickly)...