Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[dretd]

Quote:
I haven't looked at this painting in a while. What now stands out to me is that the male breast looks more laced than distinctly barred. Legs seem pale. Secondary covers call for tipped in cream (which may be wrong in the SOP) etc...off in other ways too. At the time I first saw the illustration I remember thinking it looked really good, but now I am seeing flaws. I guess when you start looking at your birds with a critical eye it falls over into everything else too!

 

[dretd]

Summary 1

Thus far I think that we have established a few things. The upcoming 7-days, I will be in and out -- and I think that I will put summaries every so often in this thread so we can know where we are -

1. The Cream Legbar SOP is on the Cream Legbar Club's website - and as we go through this thread we can discuss type - along with pictures, (I have heard of a need for this but not seen deliverables of a pictured discussion readily available - if someone has - please let us know). That said - a judge had mentioned that there are some SOP areas that are unclear...should this thread uncover something that could be improved - I see no reason why it cannot be submitted to the SOP committee. (i,e something that would assist the judges with judging) Obviously the color would be the differentation of the new variety.

Here is a rendering that was done by Curtis Hale, president of the Cream Legbar Club for the existing SOP showing his ideals of the breed:

originally the image here was a draft - and is replaced 10/21/14 by the correct cockerel ideal that was developed by GaryDean26 --

2. The variety - working name crele

For the Crele female, we can use 'Lillian" on the website for now - but discussion is on going about the degree of barring on female and the gray females shown by chicken pickin are the contrast.

We are starting at the bottom up - and LEGS that are very yellow - may accompany the brown females - and the more colorful males.

soooo
Please check your chooks and see if you are seeing more deep dark yellow legs with more brown backs on females and coloration on males. - etc. and post your comments and photos accordingly.

I Tried to go out and get some photos of my girls yesterday. It really seems that the lighting has quite an influence on how sharp the contrast is between the grey-ness of the Cream and Crele girls. I am trying to only use pictures where the girls are in the same lighting to minimize camera exposure/digital alteration effects.
Crele on the left, Cream on the right:

To my eye, they are both a warm grey in color with the Crele having more warmth than the Cream. The Crele is a taupe brown-grey and the Cream is slightly more grey but not sure how to quantify the difference between the two other than to say is less warm and more grey but not grey-grey.

When I look at two Creams side by side there is a difference in color that is due to the lighting (near sunset so strong side-lighting, a warmer colored sun) with the one in back sideways to the sun so the light is reflecting off her feathers whereas the one in front has the light from the rear so the feathers are not reflective and neutral. To my eye the one in front looks more grey and I think its the lighting making her seem less brown (or the one in back seeming more brown).


In both cases the difference between the gold-grey and the cream-grey are pretty subtle

Just to keep it real and for contrast, both are grey in comparison to my Welsummer (wild type non-barred)

First photo of Wellie and second and third Cream and the Wellie


I will make an effort to try to get more photos of my Cream and Crele girls side by side and post them when I do. For sure the contrast between the Cream and Crele body color is subtle in my flock. I have not made an effort yet to work on female body color. That is several years down the road once I get my type solidified.


Anyone else have Crele girls to share?

 

[ChicKat]

Cream and the Wellie


I will make an effort to try to get more photos of my Cream and Crele girls side by side and post them when I do. For sure the contrast between the Cream and Crele body color is subtle in my flock. I have not made an effort yet to work on female body color. That is several years down the road once I get my type solidified.


Anyone else have Crele girls to share?

dretd
This photo is a perfect example of GOLD (beautiful Wellies too) - and it brings to mind this diagram that I built:

The Welsummer is Golder than the "100% gold" in the upper left corner...explanation is that the barring dilutes the gold.

When I made this I was focused on the range that could be cream -- and I didn't put in anything more gold than 50%

The idea was partly to refocus from the neck-hackles to the back/wing coloration on the female -- although there is difference in neck too.

It seems to me that the 'cream' legbar could be all the squares except the upper left and lower right corner...or it could be that the cream is only the bottom row 2 on the left - and the Crele is the remainder with the exception of the upper left.

Seems also that the APA could accept the difference between the Gold Crele and the Silver Crele in thediagram - but the ones between could be parsed too finely to be considered a different variety?

I see a difference in the hen's back and wings from 'gold crele' and 'silver crele' that is very evident...then the other hens as you say begin to be very subtle.

Now if I flip to the SOP there is no mention of any warmth in the other than cream plumage - because they used the Silver Legbar as the basis...and I think that there are some people who think that only the one that is 0% gold could be cream.

My thought is that MOST of the Legbars I see are at about the 45% rate.

 

[ChicKat]

I haven't looked at this painting in a while. What now stands out to me is that the male breast looks more laced than distinctly barred. Legs seem pale. Secondary covers call for tipped in cream (which may be wrong in the SOP) etc...off in other ways too. At the time I first saw the illustration I remember thinking it looked really good, but now I am seeing flaws. I guess when you start looking at your birds with a critical eye it falls over into everything else too!

Really good points Dretd.... I think these came to light and I think are accurate -

Definitely the legs and beak of a real CL should be more yellow - but for coloration it is surprising how accurate Diane Jacky is according to the SOP. She really is talented.

Image probably does show the more barred look on the female than we are seeing in life- and the breast barring on male does look more laced when you zero in on it. -- Of course the artist rendition translated to various different media, through inks, production processes etc. has a ripple effect even in changes from the artist's original rendition. there are plates, mouse pads, I have this image on a T-shirt - the one shown here is a refrigerator magnet.....

This Cream Legbar is darker than the Rees-line look, it has more substantial cream in the hackles - less white-looking. If the UK judge who said cream looks like pale butter is taken into consideration - this Jacky image has more pale butter look to my eye.


cream





If you like this image you can buy it on Etsy it is by zuccazu - The crest it too large according to the SOP, the pictured crest by zuccazu would definitely block the vision - and of course probably produce very crooked combed male chicks - the breast is very light, light salmon - looking nearly cream at the very front... - but Sam Brush at the 4H Cream Legbar evaluation at the Texas State Fair did say that there is a range of salmon - and so the above could also be a match to the SOP as it is.

 

[sol2go]

I had some catching up to do, here's a few comments so I don't get too lost.

I think dretd's comments re: starting with a gold SOP and diluting it to create an accurate cream SOP is in fact more relevant than starting with a silver standard. I think we need to move forward with the information as we understand it, including changes to the British SOP as needed. There are already examples within the APA that differ from the British standards.

Thanks for all the input re: grey/black barring in rooster hackle and saddle feathers.

I love everyone's pictures.

The non-linear discussion that includes cream, crele, white, rose comb, etc is actually very helpful for considering each variety.

Here's some old pics of pullets/hens to contribute to the body color discussion. I guess I would stay with warm gray as a description for the body color of the cream hens. I have not seen any salmon breast colors that were significantly washed out. I used a 35mm digital camera, flash off. These photos were shot in the shade within a few minutes of each other.

These are a few of the seven CLB sisters I started with (the coyote left me with just a couple...)

Not Cream in the top pullet,
I think you can see more gold/brown in the body.
Cream pullet below,
also more melanized if that is what we are calling the dark tips, etc.


Same two pullets, Cream at top, not Cream at bottom.



Not Cream pullet in center (Cinnamon was her name),
she was the only sister that didn't have a black crest...

 

[sol2go]

I do hope we can keep the white variety viable.

Here's a pic of 3 CLB sisters, one is white.



Here's how "Celeste" looked as a pullet. She was a doll.

 

[ChicKat]

Fabulous pictures Sol2Go -

me too, I hope that the white variety becomes recognized some day.

 

[GaryDean26]

1) SSC doesn't have any cockerels. She sold the estate after her mother died a year ago had plans to traveling the world. When she was sending me photos of her flock back in 2012 she asked if they looked Silver to me. I told her they did and she said that she was culling anything that was too washed out was was taking great care to keep "cream" on her birds. So...I would think that she was selecting for warmth and culling the cool shades although the difference were not captured well on film.

2) I don't know. I only every saw photos of young cockerels.

3) Yes.., in all the photos I saw they did.

4) Again I am not sure here, but her line showed the cream colored crest as juveniles (unlike the Rees line and most of the USA CLBs).

Hopefully SSC is okay with me sharing some photos that she posted. For more information her now dispersed flock you can see her website HERE.


Here is one of her last cockerels. You can see that the white lobes are a lighter color than his hackles. You can also see a hint of Chestnut in this crest. Her last season she was working on getting a straight combed cockerel of an outcross to a cockerel she hatched from Emily DeGrey winning Cockerel (Frank?, Hank? Name?). She used DeGrey Cockerel to bring size into her flock.



I believe this group was from the previous season. I am not sure if that was the Emily DeGrey Cockerel (She only had one chick hatch from the hatching eggs) or if it is one that she breed from her own line. Those hens sure look to have a warm tone to them though. Look at the contrast between the white ear lobe and the hackels on the hen in the front-middle.

SSC worked on keeping straight combs on her boys. She was really hesitant to keep the cockerel she hatch from Emily DeGrey's line in 2011 because the comb was so floppy. She had one that she sent me photos of in the Spring of 2013 that had a really straight comb that she was growing out. SSC

SCC was going to hit Europe first, but I heard rumors that she was considering coming to the USA a was likely to visit Bev Davis in Florida if she did. I think an offer to visit Big Foot county might be more than she could pass up too.

I enjoy seeing all of these tail feather of the legbar hens.

 

[ChicKat]

,,,,,,

I enjoy seeing all of these tail feather of the legbar hens.

speaking of which:

Here is a Cream Legbar from the 'Domestic Fowl Trust UK' supplied to us by Paul Bradshaw and visible on the Club's website:

The above hen - more prominent 'barring' than seen on a lot of USA CL females...and some darker markings on the breast feathers, but definitely a salmon color. The crest is not bouffant to my eye. ear lobes - a little pink showing? or is it the camera angle, shadows and lighting?


a different view/colorway is another artist representation -- I think maybe the same artist that did the image from Etsy

Kind of looks like the zuccacu drawing. Very light crest and light gray in this image - another artist rendition.
also to a degree is a match to the SOP - Look on eBay if you wish to purchase this coffee mug.



also noticed this on the CL Club's website. Another photograph of Lillian in which she looks more gray and less brown -

 

[sol2go]

speaking of which:

Here is a Cream Legbar from the 'Domestic Fowl Trust UK' supplied to us by Paul Bradshaw and visible on the Club's website:

The above hen - more prominent 'barring' than seen on a lot of USA CL females...and some darker markings on the breast feathers, but definitely a salmon color. The crest is not bouffant to my eye. ear lobes - a little pink showing? or is it the camera angle, shadows and lighting?
<omitted some content>
also noticed this on the CL Club's website. Another photograph of Lillian in which she looks more gray and less brown -

Maybe it's an awkward shot, but the top hen does not seem to have the body type that has been discussed.

Looking at the legs, I'd like to add that the CL do seem to put on more weight by the time they are 2 years old. Comparing pics of my rooster as a cockerel to 2 years later, it seems like a good idea to start out with longer legs as the body seems to fill down and out...(sounds familiar...)