Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[sol2go]

I cropped the photo I posted before with the pullets. The first pic shows the light crested pullets- the crest matches the hackle overall. The second pic is a dark crested, the crest matches her upper hackle but not the rest of it. One of the lighter pullets is a full sister to the darker pullet.

that reflects essentially what I am seeing; sometimes the example in the 2nd pic has a yet lighter hackle with the dark overlay.

<edited>
Gray can go from nearly black-gray (slate like a black board) to nearly white -- hence the saying 'it's all shades of gray" - when things get indefinite.

I wonder if the APA would allow the range of crests that we are seeing.

<edited>

ETA - on the CL Club's website we do have a photo of a prize winning CL 'Lillian' - and she appears to my eye to have the darker crest. At least that is one benchmark.

ETA again - here is a photo of a winning UK Pullet in 2014:

I kept your comments on shades of grey and APA response to variety, as those are questions I am interested in.

With regards to "Jillian", it is helpful to read that matches your interpretation of a dark crest. Although I think the photo seems a little dark, and therefore the hackles don't scream cream (?), I do see that particular crest and hackles as matching; I don't see them as overly melanized. "Jillian" can also be found on the home page of Jill Rees' website as well as other examples of her hens that appear substantially brighter in the crest and hackles, as well as darker crests that seem to include darker/melanized hackles. Maybe there is another way to describe the increased dark detailing on the hackles...

http://www.jillscreamlegbars.co.uk

As a side note, in the Black Copper Marans, there is a similar transitional color area at the top of the hen's head that judges look at. I don't know how heavily it gets docked? While the judges are looking for the copper to extend through the hackles well into the head area, there is often more of a black cap that extends from the top of the head down into where the copper should be found. Maybe there is a way to define this trait that seems similar to the dark crests of the Cream Legbar heads, which then layers over and obscures the cream in the hackles...

If these nuances are not important to the breeding programs of the Cream Legbars, then that's one less thing I need to consider...

 

[sol2go]

Here is a pic that shows both in some young pullets ( they are filthy because the pic was taken when their pen flooded, but it does show both types).
Although the one on the left matches crest and hackles better, I would consider her much too melanized ( unless things change as she matures). The one on the right has better color in my opinion

Those are strong examples!
The one on the left is amazingly dark, from the crest right down into the hackles; but it sure looks like cream underneath...
I wish I could see more of the one on the right. I don't think I've seen such a dark crest with a light/unmelanized hackle.
Where they both from the same parents?

 

[dretd]

Quote:
Good Morning Sol2Go!

Pretty much all of my pullets have crests that match the body color rather than the hackles. The crests appear to be softly barred like in the body, not penciled or laced like the hackles are. None of my girls appear to have much chestnut in their crests. Perhaps the chestnut only is apparent if you have more cream in the crest and is hidden by the grey--although I can sure see the chestnut in the wings of some of the girls so I am not sure on this one.

I have one hen that is from Jordan Family Farms lines, which are widely considered to be more highly melanized than some other lines. I like her type very much, although she is small and has a high tail angle. The other two original hens I have are apparently crestless, although one of them has thrown only crested babies when crossed with a Cr/cr male who I thought was Cr/Cr until matings with the other crestless hen have me uncrested offspring. There may be something going on with the genetics that are suppressing a crest in that one hen so that she is really minimally crested instead of crestless. Very curious.

The Crest is a poorly understood genetic entity at this time. I have only found one study from China on cresting. They looked at multiple breeds and ended up doing the majority of the study with Silkies. With regard to crest size and shape I am not sure you can draw a complete parallel between Cream Legbars (which were not listed in the birds referenced with crest for the study) because the vast majority of the birds listed and all of the ones I think they actually studied have non-single combs. They talked about locating the genetic sequencing for the crest and did confirm that it has an incompletely dominant inheritance. They also show that it is of an ectopic origin, meaning that in the embryo, the cells that make up the crest did not originate from the same area that the cells from the back of the head originate but rather migrated there from another unknown area. I am going to have to reread the paper but I recall that I thought that there were some flaws in the research or conclusions The Crest Phenotype in Chicken Is Associated with Ectopic Expression of HOXC8 in Cranial Skin http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3326004/

Here is an assortment of my pullets. I can't corral them right now for better pictures, sorry! When you asked about the lightly grey barring on the hackles, I am not sure if you are talking about genetically cream vs gold, or what part of the hackle (upper vs lower etc) you are referring to?

Below is a 5 1/2 month old Cream pullet. Her crest matches her body--but the morning light is reflecting off the wood giving the front half of her body a very warm tone. Her body is really the color of the back 1/3 that is in shadow--more of a grey color--so look at that region only for comparison. Crest matches the body and maybe the nape of the neck. Sorry little one about your floppy frostbitten comb!


Here is the most melanized (JFF) hen I have, Clara, (the first picture at about 5 months, the second from this summer showing better detail of the crest). She appears probably cream (I was on the fence-no red in the throat, very pale buttery hackles) but a test mating gave me a richly colored crele male pictured earlier. You could maybe say that the crest matches the nape of the neck coloration since she has less cream/barring to lighten it, or the body.


Here are two of Clara's pullets from this summer. They are maybe 12-14 weeks old here. The bodies are shadowed, but you can see that the crests really don't match the hackles. Genetically cream on the left, gold on the right:


Sorry I don't have a better picture--This is a 'gold' pullet at maybe 12 weeks with very little melanization, or at least maximum gold edging on her hackles and she has a fairly light body tone. Very light yet obviously gold (she is from a hen that has yet to give me cream offspring), which is why using the term light as a synonym for cream and dark as a synonym for gold doesn't work for me. Her crest matches her body coloration pretty well.


And then back to a 4 1/2 month old Cream pullet. I don't think I would consider her overly melanized with a decent amount of cream in her hackles, yet her crest matches her body coloration. She has only a very small amount of chestnut in her wings and I really don't see any obviously in her crest that I can see.



I think these photos are fairly representative of my girls. When you asked about the crest being melanized in a lighter grey hackled girl, which one of the photos, if any, represent what you are meaning? The hackles generally go from dark to light as you look from the head to the shoulder so its hard for me to generalize about the hackle color since it varies.

Quite a few breeders have commented about 'over' melanization and I think its meaning changes depending on who you talk to. It may mean any coloration seemed too dark, maybe dark crest, lack of barring on the body, hackles too dark, perhaps even some horn on the beak etc, but I am not sure how much darkness is too dark and what should be considered as being 'overly' melanized. I am looking more at type than color as I build my flock and am not one that will automatically cull a 'gold' bird from my program--as you can see from my sampling--but my eventual goal is to end up with genetically ig/ig birds. I have not decided who will be going into the breeding pen next spring. I am waiting to see how they mature before making any of those decisions. I would love to have a real variety name for my non ig/ig birds!

 

[ChicKat]

Here is a gray one - also very small crest on this pullet

Her hackles BTW were very light and not a match to her crest - she is pictured in this thread

Medium colored crest -- I have always considered her's more chestnut than anything else....

'Robin' Severely in molt -- her neck has porcupine quill molt - but her crest - although you can also see some of the quills has gotten much lighter now that she is older


same chicken as above when she was younger before she went gray....taken 2 1/2 years ago or so.

one if the pullets - just about POL

another one of the POL pullets

Pullet 'Mattie' daughter of Robin -- has the dark crest that works for me. about 6 1/2 months old - has more barring in dark crest than her mother had at the same age.

 

[chicken pickin]

Great pullet/hen pictures @dretd and @ChicKat . Shows great examples of the crests and hackles. I was going to try to get pics today of my girls but my phone(camera) is broken so I need to wait until I get a chance to borrow DHs phone during the day time one of these days to snap some shots of them.

Im loving all the talk about crests since there does seem to be a vague description in the SOP. It is nice to hear how others may interpret the wording and also the personal likes and dislikes.

 

[chambe94]

Where they both from the same parents?

They are Rees pullets I got off RBA, so not sure how closely related they are. I will definitely get more pics tomorrow. My original line girls are not nearly so black in their crests, but they have a lot more brown in thier bodies. I wondered if the two were related? I will get pics of both.

 

[sol2go]

They are Rees pullets I got off RBA, so not sure how closely related they are. I will definitely get more pics tomorrow. My original line girls are not nearly so black in their crests, but they have a lot more brown in thier bodies. I wondered if the two were related? I will get pics of both.

thanks, I would never have imagined they were Rees line...

I don't know how any of this will help to differentiate a Crele variety from a Cream, but I'm loving all the pics!
I've always thought the crest variations add to the visual fun of breeding Cream Legbars.


Maybe a documentation program will help to balance out what the APA is looking for in a true to type, color, etc. breeding regimen, even with the variables.
I suppose time will tell...

 

[sol2go]

Great pullet/hen pictures @dretd and @ChicKat . Shows great examples of the crests and hackles. I was going to try to get pics today of my girls but my phone(camera) is broken so I need to wait until I get a chance to borrow DHs phone during the day time one of these days to snap some shots of them.

Im loving all the talk about crests since there does seem to be a vague description in the SOP. It is nice to hear how others may interpret the wording and also the personal likes and dislikes.

x2

 

[sol2go]

<a few items omitted>


Medium colored crest -- I have always considered her's more chestnut than anything else....


another one of the POL pullets

Pullet 'Mattie' daughter of Robin -- has the dark crest that works for me. about 6 1/2 months old - has more barring in dark crest than her mother had at the same age.

Thanks for posting ChicKat. Your pictures and descriptions seem to match up with my ideas of grey, chestnut and "dark".

 

[sol2go]

Good Morning Sol2Go!

Pretty much all of my pullets have crests that match the body color rather than the hackles. The crests appear to be softly barred like in the body, not penciled or laced like the hackles are.
<I have noticed both barred and laced crests.>

None of my girls appear to have much chestnut in their crests. Perhaps the chestnut only is apparent if you have more cream in the crest and is hidden by the grey--although I can sure see the chestnut in the wings of some of the girls so I am not sure on this one.
<I hadn't really thought of the crests as "chestnut" until ChicKat mentioned it...I think that color reference is more accurate than gold, but then I wonder if the hackles can be chestnut too?>

I have one hen that is from Jordan Family Farms lines, which are widely considered to be more highly melanized than some other lines. I like her type very much, although she is small and has a high tail angle. The other two original hens I have are apparently crestless, although one of them has thrown only crested babies when crossed with a Cr/cr male who I thought was Cr/Cr until matings with the other crestless hen have me uncrested offspring. There may be something going on with the genetics that are suppressing a crest in that one hen so that she is really minimally crested instead of crestless. Very curious.
<I remember some of the crest/crestless discussions>

The Crest is a poorly understood genetic entity at this time. I have only found one study from China on cresting. They looked at multiple breeds and ended up doing the majority of the study with Silkies. With regard to crest size and shape I am not sure you can draw a complete parallel between Cream Legbars (which were not listed in the birds referenced with crest for the study) because the vast majority of the birds listed and all of the ones I think they actually studied have non-single combs. They talked about locating the genetic sequencing for the crest and did confirm that it has an incompletely dominant inheritance. They also show that it is of an ectopic origin, meaning that in the embryo, the cells that make up the crest did not originate from the same area that the cells from the back of the head originate but rather migrated there from another unknown area. I am going to have to reread the paper but I recall that I thought that there were some flaws in the research or conclusions The Crest Phenotype in Chicken Is Associated with Ectopic Expression of HOXC8 in Cranial Skin http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3326004/
<That is really interesting. I had no idea there could be that type of developmental difference. Thanks for explaining the concept, even if the research/conclusions change in the future.>

Here is an assortment of my pullets. I can't corral them right now for better pictures, sorry! When you asked about the lightly grey barring on the hackles, I am not sure if you are talking about genetically cream vs gold, or what part of the hackle (upper vs lower etc) you are referring to?
<It is from the proposed SOP, rev.2, for the Cream Legbar, "Color-Female" - "Neck: Hackle--cream, softly barred gray." That's all there is to reference.
I guess the main aspect I was looking at is the term "softly barred gray" which seems to rule out the really dark barring (heavily melanized?) . >

Below is a 5 1/2 month old Cream pullet. Her crest matches her body--but the morning light is reflecting off the wood giving the front half of her body a very warm tone. Her body is really the color of the back 1/3 that is in shadow--more of a grey color--so look at that region only for comparison. Crest matches the body and maybe the nape of the neck. Sorry little one about your floppy frostbitten comb!


Here is the most melanized (JFF) hen I have, Clara, (the first picture at about 5 months, the second from this summer showing better detail of the crest).
<I have a Clara too! She is also heavily melanized, which passed on to her daughter; who was wildly wrong in so many ways. I also have another hen who is something beyond just melanized, including no crest...>
She appears probably cream (I was on the fence-no red in the throat, very pale buttery hackles) but a test mating gave me a richly colored crele male pictured earlier. You could maybe say that the crest matches the nape of the neck coloration since she has less cream/barring to lighten it, or the body.


Here are two of Clara's pullets from this summer. They are maybe 12-14 weeks old here. The bodies are shadowed, but you can see that the crests really don't match the hackles. Genetically cream on the left, gold on the right:
<At this age, the cream pullet has more light showing through on her hackles than dark barring, which seems like a good sign? The dark color seems confined to her crest and doesn't appear to extend over her head and down into her hackles? ie there is a distinct color break between her crest and hackles - not meaning to say anything one way or the other about matching crest & hackles, just that the concentrated color is confined to the crest.>


Sorry I don't have a better picture--This is a 'gold' pullet at maybe 12 weeks with very little melanization, or at least maximum gold edging on her hackles and she has a fairly light body tone. Very light yet obviously gold (she is from a hen that has yet to give me cream offspring), which is why using the term light as a synonym for cream and dark as a synonym for gold doesn't work for me. Her crest matches her body coloration pretty well.
<so pretty, regardless of what she does or doesn't conform to>


And then back to a 4 1/2 month old Cream pullet. I don't think I would consider her overly melanized with a decent amount of cream in her hackles, yet her crest matches her body coloration.
<I agree with that.>
She has only a very small amount of chestnut in her wings and I really don't see any obviously in her crest that I can see.



I think these photos are fairly representative of my girls. When you asked about the crest being melanized in a lighter grey hackled girl, which one of the photos, if any, represent what you are meaning?
<I suppose the last photo would be the closest to a dark melanized crest with a lighter hackle - grey? black that appears grey because there is more cream around it? ???>
The hackles generally go from dark to light as you look from the head to the shoulder so its hard for me to generalize about the hackle color since it varies.
<I also see a fade in the hackles. Maybe someone with other breeds that try to avoid that fade or halo at the bottom of the hackles could contribute how that works in those breeds?>

Quite a few breeders have commented about 'over' melanization and I think its meaning changes depending on who you talk to. It may mean any coloration seemed too dark, maybe dark crest, lack of barring on the body, hackles too dark, perhaps even some horn on the beak etc, but I am not sure how much darkness is too dark and what should be considered as being 'overly' melanized.
<chambe94 has a great example in a recent post, and I will add one too. They are extreme examples for sure. I think if the hackles no longer match the "softly barred gray" from the SOP that might be one indication.>

I am looking more at type than color as I build my flock and am not one that will automatically cull a 'gold' bird from my program--as you can see from my sampling--but my eventual goal is to end up with genetically ig/ig birds.
<me too>
I have not decided who will be going into the breeding pen next spring. I am waiting to see how they mature before making any of those decisions.
<likewise>
I would love to have a real variety name for my non ig/ig birds!
<yep yep. I think more or less validating the obvious reduces waste, so to speak, and extends happy chicken lives for people who welcome the variety. 9 times out of 10, my colorful "Cream" Legbar roosters get all the nice comments and positive attention.>

Thanks to the time difference I can probably say good morning to you too dretd (you should be sound asleep as I write this...).
I popped in some <comments> as it was easier than putting it down here.