Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[chicken pickin]

Sounds like the mantra at my house...

I often have the same problem, I love them all and want to keep them all. Its hard to part with those that dont fit into breeding programs. Im getting better at though. I do need to part with some layers now to make room and I am procrastinating it, also might part with my turkeys. I really need space and less distraction so I can focus on breeding.

 

[sol2go]

I often have the same problem, I love them all and want to keep them all. Its hard to part with those that dont fit into breeding programs. Im getting better at though. I do need to part with some layers now to make room and I am procrastinating it, also might part with my turkeys. I really need space and less distraction so I can focus on breeding.

Good luck with that! =)

 

[dretd]

I thought I would post a few pictures of my Cumberbatch x Beatrix boys. They are about 4 1/2 or 5 months--I forget. Definitely interested in the girls so they need to go soon. I wanted to grow them out long enough to have a very clear idea of where they are headed. I think that they would be reasonable examples of Crele and I think are too gold-colored for inclusion in the Cream SOP. What do y'all think:

And here is the last one in he bright sunlight

And a full brother who is 8 months

 

[dretd]

I processed my Clara x Barnaby roo for a number of reasons--horrible floppy comb, very intense coloration and he was stamping his feet at me when I caged him and that does not fly at my house. He is probably the closest I have had to Crele and overall was quite beautiful. If we had a Crele standard, he is what I would shoot for, color-wise. Like the Roos above, If we do not elect to create a second variety, he is too colorful to be Cream and we will lose that color forever hidden under the recessive cream. I posted a picture of him earlier. Here are close ups of his hackle, saddle and wings:

 

[ChicKat]

IMO, it would be wiser to work on the breed, (type, crest, comb, earlobes, fertility, health, disposition, fecundity etc.) and include colors like this - and then if once the CL is admitted to the APA. the same experience that the Brown Leghorn had occurs, then split it in two and introduce another variety.

There are still a lot of cross overs and border lines---

IMO the ones without any color are as far away from perfection as the ones that you put up there. (unless someone thinks that cream is white and not cream). Add to that, the males tend to lighten with age. (Don't know if the already white-looking ones lighten)--- It would be pretty confusing for an APA judge to separate some of the ones that are right on the boarder...and how gold would it take the breed - would it go to a true gold/brown barred bird? It would be better for the breed as a whole, it would include more people that have Cream legbars most important it wouldn't bottleneck the gene pool into a very small percentage of the CLs--- I know numbers who have left the breed for the simple reason that they didn't like the ones that look white and didn't want to raise them, Some people may raise both -- if the breed is split - I suspect more people will leave the breed. As long as it can be looked at instantly and identified as a CL -- then I think we are splitting hairs and need to say -- this one has better or more desirable color than that one -- but not that it is at this point 'not a cream legbar' -- That was very damaging to the breed - I suppose those with the judgement thought that they were helping - but driving people away from the breed isn't a help IMO. --

ETA - if the perfect cream color occurs in the same ratio as the crele breeder with article link previously -- then there will be .0075% perfect birds. It would probably kill off the breed if all that are not perfect are excluded. Especially while there is a range of appreciation for individual's preferences -- it would be damaging to divide the rare CLs that are in the USA now.

 

[dretd]

...- then I think we are splitting hairs and need to say -- this one has better or more desirable color than that one -- but not that it is at this point 'not a cream legbar' -- That was very damaging to the breed - I suppose those with the judgement thought that they were helping - but driving people away from the breed isn't a help IMO. --

ETA - if the perfect cream color occurs in the same ratio as the crele breeder with article link previously -- then there will be .0075% perfect birds. It would probably kill off the breed if all that are not perfect are excluded. Especially while there is a range of appreciation for individual's preferences -- it would be damaging to divide the rare CLs that are in the USA now.

I thought we were discussing whether there is enough interest to form a second variety--it sounds like you've made up your mind there is not. I didn't mean to drive anyone away with this line of inquiry


PS to your ETA: As for the gentleman you are quoting from the article talking about there only being 1/250,000 birds that are true Crele--I question his numbers, it sounds like he pulled that out of the air to me. He also was very opinionated about what he thought Crele meant and I think excluded a great number of birds--if crele is really barred wild type genetically--he is of the opinion that the hackles must be evenly barred from the top to the bottom with black, gold and white and none others are Crele--although I am not sure what he would call them if not Crele. Although it was an interesting read, I found his paper confusing and lop-sided.
OK, I will stop talking now

 

[enola]

I certainly hope someone decides to accept the "crele" (crelish colored) variety and move the color forward for acceptance to the APA. I think the more colorful roosters are prettier.

 

[chicken pickin]

Of course this is just my opinion because I know alot of what the CL should look like according to the SOP is still kind of up in the air. But in response to @ChicKat I feel the ones that are "without" color are closer to the SOP than the ones with some color. No where is the SOP does it mention any color besides cream and gray to be on a male CL, with the exception of some chestnut permissible in 4 areas only, meaning they don't need to be showing chestnut at all. Cream should be a warm slight buttery color. While many of the colorless male out there look white or silver, often it is the lighting and the background that have a lot to do with the color appearance we are seeing.

Here are 2 pictures of the same male (he is far from perfect), one taken in fall and the other one in winter. The backgrounds and lighting change what he looks like significantly.
Here he looks to be white/silver

Here he is showing he is indeed cream against the white snow background


I do know that color is allowed in the males and some do like the color, but too me and a lot of others out there the SOP is calling for a less colorful bird. I definitely do not knock anyone for raising and breeding for a slightly more colored bird because they are beautiful and do still fit in the SOP with the permissible chestnut. But often I feel like we are being very gentle with our opinions when others ask for critiques. If we don't start to acknowledge and voice out loud that many CL out there really do not fit the SOP then I feel like it is hindering the necessary learning process that we all need to go through to understand what we should know about the CL and the SOP. Sometimes I feel confused because everyone seems to be just kind of doing what they want when breeding CL because they look prettier that way or they havent learned because no one told them and Im not sure that will get us anywhere. To each there own though and definitely breed as you wish. To me adding the new variety is confusing since also like ChicKat says, some CL might be right in the border line area concerning cream VS more color, where some one might be asking which side they fall on.
I do however think we need to be working on getting a better butter color on our CLs but that doesnt necessarily mean include more color all around. Again just my opinion. Sorry for the rant

 

[ChicKat]

Beautiful photos Chickin pickin...

enola, dretd and chicken pickin -- I just typed a 15 page replay to your concerns above....

Let me start by asking where on the 9-paneled chart that shows gold versus silver saturation on a crele leghorn do each of you think that the division should be between 'cream' Legbar and 'crele' Legbar:


My satellite is just about to go down -- so maybe I can get this under the wire for your consideration -- I'm really curious.

Once it is back up I will try to repost the picture -- but it is in this thread...sorry for the technical difficulties.

 

[ChicKat]

Couldn't re-establish the connection last night - so here is the grid. Obviously the one that is 0%gold is silver and wouldn't be considered cream. The one that is 100% gold is gold -- particularly distinct due to the burnt orange body and wing plumage of the female. 60%-90% gold appearance are not on the chart.

Although these are only pictures, and although the brown Leghorn + barring genetics that underlie this breed are not identical to the CL, the underlying genetics of a crele leghorn are awfully close to how the CL was made in Punnett's day. So which intensity of non-silver would you draw the line and say this crosses over to a different variety?

When I began this thread 4-months ago - I was kind of brain-washed into thinking that anything that looked similar to the Applegarth or the cockerel that won in the UK in 2014 needed to be in a different variety. After 4-months and over 400 posts - my conclusion is that not only is another variety not necessary -- it is not going to be a positive step for the CL breed.

I think that the confusion over 'silver' in chickens is part of the problem, so I will just revisit one silver chicken that is posted here - it won at the Texas State Fair last year -- so I suspect that it is a good example of a silver chicken....

IMO the appearance of the above silver chicken is a match to about 50% or more gold appearance above.

The can of worms that would be opened right now by making a different although very similar variety - IMO needlessly - by dividing out colorful birds would seriously damage or set back the breed. I'm not 100% sure what would be gained...

Should there become actual scientific data that the colors are simply ig/ig vs another combination of that gene (Ig/Ig or Ig/ig)-- then at that time a different variety could be established. There are quite a number of diluters and intensifiers that could be influencing the plumage, as well as nutritional and environmental factors. (a lot of these were covered in this thread). At that time then, with scientific data another variety could be established. People don't know if they have split silver, autosomal red, champagne gene or other diluter. There are a lot of adamant positions - but they aren't really based on all the possible factors IMO. The rosecomb - definitely another variety, the white recessive - different genetics underlie the appearance -

Were a similar variety to be established now, as I thought at the beginning was required to SAVE Cream Legbars that had the appearance of the Applegarth male, the "more colorful" cream legbars, there would be so much confusion and so much narrowing of the gene pool, so many that thought that they had Cream Legbars only to be told that they don't. (sadly based more on opinoins, interpretation and preferences IMO) -- Sorry, but I don't think I could be a contributor to that much harm the breed. So although this thread was started to explore the need for a different variety using the working name crele -- after 400 posts and a walk thru of the SOP with the Applegarth male - with no huge divergence to the SOP other than those noted in the walk-thru. I not only don't think that an alternative crele SOP is needed, I think it would be damaging, and I think that it is so far now - after 400 posts - from my philosophy about the Cream Legbar that I couldn't take part in making an alternative SOP.

So if someone has come to a conclusion very different from mine -- they can take the torch and create an alternative SOP. If colorful CLs are not "correct" - then I guess the will die out as the pendulum swings back toward the very light ones.