Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

I have a really dumb question please bare with me. How can you guys tell by the picture whether a bird is single barred or double barred? I get why it is important.. Just unclear on how you are identifying it. Thank you in advance.

Of course we can only surmise from pictures..... a bird with single barring will have much less definite barring.

Think of your CL females -- they are single barred. It's there but you have to look for it. Some CL females show (express) the barring more than others. In some female's tails you almost don't see it at all -- you have to part the feathers and look close to the skin. the under fluff of the females should be barred as well. HTH a little

 

[KendyF]

Of course we can only surmise from pictures..... a bird with single barring will have much less definite barring.

Think of your CL females -- they are single barred. It's there but you have to look for it. Some CL females show (express) the barring more than others. In some female's tails you almost don't see it at all -- you have to part the feathers and look close to the skin. the under fluff of the females should be barred as well. HTH a little

Thank you.

 

[1muttsfan]

Well, I will jump in - strictly in a nonpersonal way!

As far as color goes, I think immediately of cream when I look at 2, 6, and 9. As far as type goes, lots of squirrel tails, and many combs look awry, although I suspect frostbite plays a part in at least some of them. I like 5 and 7 for color, although you know I like them more saturated. 1 not so much for either color or shape.

 

[fowlman01]

Thanks for posting dretd
I hope we do hear from @fowlman01

Meanwhile I'll pop in for some comments:
question #1 - a) Cream = ig/ig is the answer for me
question #2 - I think the current naming conventions "Cream" and "Crele" are fine, if the Cream has a softer overall look and the Crele has a bolder coloration. I would not favor the term "dilute crele". Especially since "dilute" could reference an entirely different "dominant dilute" genetic at work. See @ChicKat 's recent link to Classroom in the Coop, discussions on or about 10/21/11.
www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=99193&page=all

The concept of dominant dilute, Di/Di, has also been related to the lighter shades of brown leghorns, specifically that it acts as a dominant gold diluter in addition to anything that cream ig/ig would impact, which may be a factor in the "whiter" birds we are seeing.

In that discussion they do occasionally refer to "Cream Crele", but never "Dilute Crele", so I think "Cream" is the operative term.

Your comment:
Punnett in one of his papers (http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/48/327.pdf and the paragraph about the secondaries is found just above the entry "Rhode Island Red Cross" on page 329) describes how red doesn't show up in the wing triangle, only gold. So looking to see if there is gold in that location is the best way for a breeder to get an idea if their bird is ig/ig or Ig/?. It is a tool in the tool box to decide what you have.
…has always been the litmus test for me of gold vs cream. Today I noticed another part of that statement that answers a loose end for me. I have always wondered if we were seeing red/chestnut instead of gold on the wing triangle. So your referenced information is very helpful for me to stay focused on is it gold or cream in the wing triangle.
I think if we can accept that as a reliable standard, it is a key point that would readily identify "Cream" vs "Crele" for the purposes of APA standards.

For the purposes of breeding, if the rooster's genotype is split for cream, and his phenotype is gold based on the wing triangle, then his offspring with a cream female could meet the APA requirements for breeding 50% true for cream. If everything else is equal, then he would be a valuable breeder for either variety. In the long run, I suspect that won't work as well if the Crele version wants to be more saturated than the Cream.

Time is our friend. As we all work towards our own preferences, the authentic characteristics of Cream and Crele will become clear and provide a solid basis for distinctions between the two. Staying with the effort also shows a true attachment to the breed and the varieties within it, beyond just a short term hobby or trend.

As far as the APA is concerned the bird has to look like the description proposed and breed 50% true. The 50% is to cover complex colors like this. The decision has to be made on what the description will say. If the description ends up different than the British description, we will want to know why it is different. It can be different, but we will need a good reason why it is different.

Walt

 

[1muttsfan]

Thanks Walt very concise.

 

[kjbizy1]

I am so glad that you said that -- because you are right -- and I totally overlooked it!  See how "coop blindness" can creep in? -- So I was thinking you could have a variety that is semi-autosexing  at hatch...some males would have the white head spot and others wouldn't and the females (and some males) would be chipmunk striped.  

BUT then it got complicated in my mind, because if you select at hatch the head-spot males - you would probably be breeding forward double barred males.  You would have to wait a long time to provide people with guaranteed females as day-old or young chicks.  My supposition is that were you to carry forward the plan - and use double barred males - and definite females from you hatches from this line -- you would end up very close to the image of the gold pair of Gold crele Leghorns from the illustration - except they would have crests and blue eggs? 

Would that gold be enough saturation for the aesthetic that you are after?  IMO it is a beautiful coloration. 

I personally did not breed him, but got him from someone whos breeding lines were only partially auto sexing,I took him on as a project bird to learn from, because I was trying to figure out why this person was having auto sexing issues, but I know why now.
I chose to keep this boy for his type and color saturation, so I will do some test breeding, keeping only properly auto sexing offspring, to see if I can breed on the things I do like from him. Of,course he won't be my only male for breeding

But, my goal is for a color saturated Crele line.
However, at this point,I am still aquiring stock, and still looking for cockerels and rooste. prospects to work with.

 

[ChicKat]

I personally did not breed him, but got him from someone whos breeding lines were only partially auto sexing,I took him on as a project bird to learn from, because I was trying to figure out why this person was having auto sexing issues, but I know why now.
I chose to keep this boy for his type and color saturation, so I will do some test breeding, keeping only properly auto sexing offspring, to see if I can breed on the things I do like from him. Of,course he won't be my only male for breeding

But, my goal is for a color saturated Crele line.
However, at this point,I am still aquiring stock, and still looking for cockerels and rooste. prospects to work with.

Yay!!! You could help out your friend (solve their problem with autosexing) - unless they have divested of Legbars -- and work with the breed. Please keep us posted and up to date as you progress!!!!

 

[ChicKat]

As far as the APA is concerned the bird has to look like the description proposed and breed 50% true. The 50% is to cover complex colors like this. The decision has to be made on what the description will say. If the description ends up different than the British description, we will want to know why it is different. It can be different, but we will need a good reason why it is different.

Walt

Thanks for weighing in Walt.

 

[dretd]

Quote: Thanks for the comment Chickcat. I will eventually reveal the underlying genetics of each of these fellows--I think its very useful to look at them without knowing what that may be to 'blind' the 'study' if you will.
All of the roosters I have shown have various flaws--some of them very serious and yes all of them have some degree of frostbit damage including full loss of the blade and serious pink scarring on the lobe. #1 had minor pink showing in his lobe before the Polar Vortex but geeshh--he's not even the most damaged of the lot after.

One comment about the perception of the squirrel tails--his does at first glance look squirrel tail. The APA definition being "Squirrel Tail: One in which any portion projects forward of the vertical from its anterior base (fig. 34); a disqualification except in Japanese Bantams". In the second illustration they show the how to but have the greater sickles exactly following the angle of the main tail feathers.


I have always thought they were judging off the Main Tail Feathers when looking at the angle since the sickles are quite curved but this is probably not the case according to this definition. If you measure the angle on rooster 1, the main tail feathers actually measure in at about 55 degrees and the sickles really project forward and are at about 100 to 105 degrees depending on whether you measure the shaft or the leading edge of the sickle. That is a huge difference and it means that as a breeder I don't need to change the main tail angle by much but rather need to change the angle of the greater sickles. None of his male offspring have as bad a tail set as he does, nor are the comb/crest combos as far off either and none are as light as he is--number 10 is one of his sons as an example.

Here is a picture of the exact same rooster in October 2014 just as he was finishing his molt but before he grew in his greater sickles and before he was bleached by the sun


When I lay a protractor on the main tail vs horizontal it is around 60 degrees--it looks more acute becasue he has an upright back.

 

[dretd]

Quote:
As far as the APA is concerned the bird has to look like the description proposed and breed 50% true. The 50% is to cover complex colors like this. The decision has to be made on what the description will say. If the description ends up different than the British description, we will want to know why it is different. It can be different, but we will need a good reason why it is different.

Walt

Thanks for the reply. I am hoping you can be more specific and elaborate a bit more for me. The color reference in the proposed SOP will always be Cream--we are not going to change that term its how we interpret what is meant by Cream that is the issue.

I think the crux of the color issue for the Cream Legbar is that some people (me included) think that the term Cream refers to the genetics state of the bird carrying two copies of the gene inhibitor of gold and that is manifested in the phenotype as being something off-white (the appearance can be modified by many other complicating factors including how much red, how many melanizers and the type of barring the bird carries--not to mention the inherent saturation of the gold to start with). Other people (like Chickat) think that it only refers to the color of the bird that you see and that it does not refer to the underlying genetics of the bird at all.

So my specific questions for the APA is:1) should the ideal Cream Legbar be ig/ig (genetically expressing cream) or does the ideal Cream Legbar need to match the SOP regardless of the underlying genetics and if so, how is the term Cream perceived by a judge* given that the Cream Legbar is diluted further with barring?

2) Will it hinder the acceptance of the Cream Legbar into the APA SOP if there is a variation in the color phenotype, where some birds are more white-looking and others are gold tinted-- ie how much variation in 'Cream' plumage will be acceptable to a judge?

I really appreciate your point of view on this matter!

* the APA SOP (pg 7, 2010 edition) doesn't have a definition of Cream, only:
Creamy-White: A shade of pale yellowish white color; applied to the color of the plumage of the Pekin Duck; also in some breeds of fowl,
Creaminess: A term descriptive of white feathers in which the shafts and webs are tinged with a light yellow or creamy color; not the same as brassiness. Characteristic of the new feathers, dur to immaturity.