Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[KendyF]

P.S. I do not have two lines for pullets/cockerels and this year's growers look like some will best their parents. Though some breeders may prefer that method, I don't think we have to have two lines for show birds.

Great to hear KPenley! Thank you for mentioning it.

 

[ChicKat]

Are you talking about Incomplete Autosomal Dominant Inheritance? Wild type pattern in conjunction with a recessive color gene when paired with a dominant or mutant color can produce offspring with a color somewhere between the two. ie. Cream plus gold can equal pale gold. Tony talked about that some last year in the Eastern District when he saw a cream rooster for the first time, and then noticed the difference in his birds between Ig/Ig, Ig/ig, and ig/ig.

whoops, sorry I missed this one KPenley,

could you give more information on Autosomal Dominant Inheritance and ..... I think that since we want a diluted gold we want pale gold. Please elaborate.

 

[ChicKat]

For those of you who haven't ever seen it, and wish to see what I got when working with the chicken calculator a few years back, here is an old article from one of the Cream Legbar Club's earlier newsletters:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AQeQ0G_C3SZW4DayagYi1lMI0ziZrF_JIKviW_Pp9Dk/edit?usp=sharing

Just to make an instant summary -- using the genes that I believe to be in the Cream Legbar in conjunction with Henk's chicken calculator, this was the result:

Here is the result of adding Cream genetics

male gold duckwing with barring and cream (gold inhibitor) genetics added

female gold duckwing with barring and cream (gold inhibitor) genetics added.

The images of true Cream Legbars genetically, would be similar to the two illustrations listed above.
male gold duckwing with barring and cream (gold inhibitor) genetics added
Of course, it is a diagram (I think most people can tell -- but just to deflect the critiques that say it isn't a photo, indeed you are right.) And of course it is a computer extrapolation..... that is obvious.

If you have worked much with the calculator -- you can see why I think Henk is a genius

ETA - Henk had read the article and gave me corrections where I didn't have the right genes for the leg color....which is just another example of how generous these experts are with their time and support.

One thing that is especially interesting and appealing to me is the red patch on the male - above the wing bar....I think that amount of red is just about right (oops I mean chestnut)----- And the more I lookd at it the more I like the cream that they came up with -- in Europe it is called Citron (which is the french word for lemon -{ for all you Francophiles (gallophiles)}.
Wasn't there once a car with that name? Oh no it was Citroen...okay

After the recent contributions to this discussion - I remain thinking that most Cream Legbars ARE Cream Legbars -- it could be that another variety would be a Gold Cream Legbar -- different from the Gold Legbar variety of Legbar that already exists -- by adding a crest and blue eggs-- Otherwise it would look like a Gold Legbar. Genetically and appearance wise though, a true Gold Legbar would be pretty much the same as the artist rendition of the Gold Crele Leghorn, and a Silver Legbar would be pretty much the same thing as a Silver Crele Leghorn........ both in genetics and appearance. Perhaps that is one reason that the other two Legbar types are for the most part -- non-existant.

Again, another variety with another SOP wouldn't IMO help to get the breed recognized by the APA -- as Walt stated above - one color needs to be settled on and worked toward. All the cusp/boarder line CLs would be folded into the Cream Legbar - and more people would be raising them rather than feeling ostracized. I can also see how a one word addition to our current SOP would cover chickens just like mine....LOL -- And also as someone told me lately ' I won't go with the look of washed out white '

Some like it, some don't like it but have been convinced it is the only correct CL -- and that is why we will continue to have this conversation - until a specific color is settled upon as Walt suggested above.

So I will say again (written earlier in this thread) that if people want a different variety for chickens like my flock -- (see avatar) that is really their prerogative -- but it is an effort that I won't contribute to, because I think that it would be harmful to the breed.

 

[chicken pickin]

For those of you who haven't ever seen it, and wish to see what I got when working with the chicken calculator a few years back, here is an old article from one of the Cream Legbar Club's earlier newsletters:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AQeQ0G_C3SZW4DayagYi1lMI0ziZrF_JIKviW_Pp9Dk/edit?usp=sharing

Just to make an instant summary -- using the genes that I believe to be in the Cream Legbar in conjunction with Henk's chicken calculator, this was the result:

Here is the result of adding Cream genetics

male gold duckwing with barring and cream (gold inhibitor) genetics added

female gold duckwing with barring and cream (gold inhibitor) genetics added.

The images of true Cream Legbars genetically, would be similar to the two illustrations listed above.
male gold duckwing with barring and cream (gold inhibitor) genetics added
Of course, it is a diagram (I think most people can tell -- but just to deflect the critiques that say it isn't a photo, indeed you are right.) And of course it is a computer extrapolation..... that is obvious.

If you have worked much with the calculator -- you can see why I think Henk is a genius

ETA - Henk had read the article and gave me corrections where I didn't have the right genes for the leg color....which is just another example of how generous these experts are with their time and support.

One thing that is especially interesting and appealing to me is the red patch on the male - above the wing bar....I think that amount of red is just about right (oops I mean chestnut)----- And the more I lookd at it the more I like the cream that they came up with -- in Europe it is called Citron (which is the french word for lemon -{ for all you Francophiles (gallophiles)}.
Wasn't there once a car with that name? Oh no it was Citroen...okay

After the recent contributions to this discussion - I remain thinking that most Cream Legbars ARE Cream Legbars -- it could be that another variety would be a Gold Cream Legbar -- different from the Gold Legbar variety of Legbar that already exists -- by adding a crest and blue eggs-- Otherwise it would look like a Gold Legbar. Genetically and appearance wise though, a true Gold Legbar would be pretty much the same as the artist rendition of the Gold Crele Leghorn, and a Silver Legbar would be pretty much the same thing as a Silver Crele Leghorn........ both in genetics and appearance. Perhaps that is one reason that the other two Legbar types are for the most part -- non-existant.

Again, another variety with another SOP wouldn't IMO help to get the breed recognized by the APA -- as Walt stated above - one color needs to be settled on and worked toward. All the cusp/boarder line CLs would be folded into the Cream Legbar - and more people would be raising them rather than feeling ostracized. I can also see how a one word addition to our current SOP would cover chickens just like mine....LOL -- And also as someone told me lately ' I won't go with the look of washed out white '

Some like it, some don't like it but have been convinced it is the only correct CL -- and that is why we will continue to have this conversation - until a specific color is settled upon as Walt suggested above.

So I will say again (written earlier in this thread) that if people want a different variety for chickens like my flock -- (see avatar) that is really their prerogative -- but it is an effort that I won't contribute to, because I think that it would be harmful to the breed.

I agree, and I have also said this from the beginning, that people trying to come up with a new standard right now will only hinder the process of the Cream Legbar getting accepted with its current proposed Standard. Trying to split what we have into 2 varieties will in my opinion confuse some Legbar owners, new folks wanting to get into Legbars and possible the general public and judges that still have not really seen what a Cream Legbar is.

Currently the differences are too little to separate the Cream and the Colorful. I do feel that there is a range of color that can be allowed per the SOP since it is all by person interpretation. Cream Legbars can be a little colorful or as pale as you would like(as long as the colors are in the appropriate areas and you are doing your best to follow the SOP). So people can still breed Cream Legbars to standard with some color.

I think in the future that there could be a new variety made but I currently don't see how its possible with the birds we see now. Unless a group of dedicated and committed people come together and really work to understand how these overly colorful CL should look and find a way to breed them so they are completely distinguishable from the Cream Legbar to the point that people don't have to ask "Is this Cream or Crele?'. But what we have now Im my opinion are many non SOP Cream Legbars, but non standard happens within every breed.

I do think if the colorful variety was breed with enough dedicated folks to a color or pattern that was more distinct from the Cream Legbar than it might have a shot, but currently I feel it would be beneficial to try to get the Cream Legbar and its already proposed Standard accepted and then work on the next variety if people still feel there needs to be one.

Im not against the colorful variety getting added, in the future I think many of us would be happy to help it along. But with current confusion on the Cream Legbar color from so many people it sometimes feels like we are going in circles. These color discussions are great and are tremendously educational to those that take the time to read them but we need to stay focused so we dont do a complete 360. Sometimes the focus on color is taking away from the more important issues which are type, something a lot of Legbars are lacking but everyone is so wrapped up in too much color or not enough color. Lets take a step back and see where we are, we all need to accept that a Cream Legbar has proposed Standard we can follow(or choose not to) Also people need to accept that too much color is currently just non Standard. Also like @dretd said in a previous post and not call the Cream Legbar that are on the paler side silver or washed out etc ( I agree with her that many CL owners have done there best to word how we describe the colorful CL so that the owners are not discouraged, we ask that you colorful CL owners have the same respect). Also like @ChicKat mentions above that some people have been told or given the impression that the very light colored or white CL are the only correct, that is not so and we Cream Legbar breeders need to be more open mined to a little color. In doing so maybe we can take one more step forward to getting these great birds accepted.

@ChicKat also mentioned a few posts back for ideas on images that can be our focus for what we feel are in the range of color we feel are acceptable for our CL. Our lightest CL image to our most colorful image. I think this will be extremely helpful to those that are unsure of what the SOP is asking for. Having images we can look at and visually see it can give people a better understanding that their CL shouldn't be lighter or brighter than what they are seeing. Of course pictures will just be there for reference because computer images can be different on each individual computer. But I think It might help to start moving forward again.

Im not writing this to discourage the Colorful CL owners because I do think you all will get there in branching off to a new variety. I think we just need to stay on track and currently trying to split varieties is not staying on track.

 

[dretd]

I agree, and I have also said this from the beginning, that people trying to come up with a new standard right now will only hinder the process of the Cream Legbar getting accepted with its current proposed Standard. Trying to split what we have into 2 varieties will in my opinion confuse some Legbar owners, new folks wanting to get into Legbars and possible the general public and judges that still have not really seen what a Cream Legbar is.

Currently the differences are too little to separate the Cream and the Colorful. I do feel that there is a range of color that can be allowed per the SOP since it is all by person interpretation. Cream Legbars can be a little colorful or as pale as you would like(as long as the colors are in the appropriate areas and you are doing your best to follow the SOP). So people can still breed Cream Legbars to standard with some color.

I think in the future that there could be a new variety made but I currently don't see how its possible with the birds we see now. Unless a group of dedicated and committed people come together and really work to understand how these overly colorful CL should look and find a way to breed them so they are completely distinguishable from the Cream Legbar to the point that people don't have to ask "Is this Cream or Crele?'. But what we have now Im my opinion are many non SOP Cream Legbars, but non standard happens within every breed.

I do think if the colorful variety was breed with enough dedicated folks to a color or pattern that was more distinct from the Cream Legbar than it might have a shot, but currently I feel it would be beneficial to try to get the Cream Legbar and its already proposed Standard accepted and then work on the next variety if people still feel there needs to be one.

Hi Chicken Picken, thanks for your comments.

As I see it, without a Crele Standard up and formalized so that people can breed towards that standard, people can't come together--they can only voice that they want a very saturated version which IMO is going to be too saturated to fit into the phenotypic description of Cream. Until that standard is available, all birds descended from Cream Legbars will try to be accommodated under the one umbrella and my concern has always been that this will be too large of an umbrella to be allowed with the APA. My whole goal with having a second standard was to give the really colorful ones a legitimate name instead of referring to them as 'colorful' (does that mean too much red or gold instead of cream or what?) or 'not a real Cream Legbar'. So far the ones in my flock that are too colorful (meaning both gold/ too richly colored/crele) are eaten if they are a rooster and sold as Easter Leggers if they are girls.

Basically, Chickcat has held up my very flawed but richly saturated cream as an ideal of the 'dark' end--I am calling him Obie (and although I love his color I am very uncomfortable holding him up as any great thing because he has so many flaws--maybe a grand-cockerel some day but not him) and since I believe him to be both genetic cream and phenotypic cream that's not unreasonable. However, imagine him if he were not diluted by cream. He would be a very rich gold color--aka Crele. Maybe this is why I am so focused on the Crele. I have hatched gold versions of him in my flock and they are far too colorful to be a Cream Legbar. Walt said that there was some wiggle room in the color range, but that there was a limit.

Most of the Ig/ig birds I have seen pictures of and most in my flock do fit within the Cream Phenotype (with a few minor color flaws), but I assure you there are really gorgeous birds out there that are really a bright gold and they shouldn't be accommodated under Cream. Visitors in my flock (this is from chicken-haters, too) have pointed at Obie and said 'wow, he's really pretty' something that they don't do with the more white-looking roosters. Can you imagine a gold version of him drawing even more notice? Personally, I would love to be able to sell them to someone who is passionate about that color to work on instead of just eating them.

I can see both the pro and con to creating a Crele Variety -like all decisions in life, there are valid arguments both for and against the idea. I guess it comes down to figuring out if there are any people willing to actually work on the variety--how passionate are they? My biggest fear (and it is a big one) with creating a Crele variety is that people will assume that any 'colorful' birds would go there and that would mean only washed-out monochromatic birds with little or no chestnut would stay in the Cream section--and that is most certainly not the case and that would for sure be destructive to the Cream Variety. In my mind the Crele is for the super-saturated, no questions, red, gold and black birds. It is a minor number of birds produced at this time. It would be important to articulate that up front--it is not a mere parsing if the bird has a gold wing triangle or not. It is a line that is crossed with the sheer amount of gold and red and melanization that tips them into the Crele category.

I suspect that the people who are interested in the very rich color are not going to show their birds in as Cream Legbar anyway and just want to have a really beautiful bird in their coop with a name and really don't want to have another person tell them that their bird is too colorful to be a 'real' Cream Legbar'--but I could be wrong. Would that hurt the Cream Variety acceptance if there was an alternative variety up there but no one was showing it?

So for anyone who was on the pro side of having a Crele Variety, how many of you were interested in showing and breeding enough birds to develop this color variety, and becoming a member of the APA for the 5 years that it will take to get this variety accepted, and how many of the Crele affectionados are planning on showing any Cream Legbars (even if they are colorful) at any bird shows?

-If you are seriously interested in the Crele variety and have an interest in actively getting the variety going it would be helpful to know that up front.

-If you are interested in the Crele variety but don't want to show but rather just have a name to call your birds that you feel fits them better than Cream--that's also ok and it would be very helpful to know that information, too.

Both of these questions are important to understand when we decide how to move forward (or not) with a Crele Variety. You can PM me with your interest if you like instead of posting in this thread.

 

[dretd]

Awhile back, I posted this photo

This is the saddle feathers from a pelt I have and I think that the 'edged with cream' approaches OAC851 for those with an OAC -- How near or far from that shade are other people's cream expressed?

Or maybe OAC767, or OAC795, or OAC815, OAC816 I will have to recheck my pelt in day light -- the former is on a more green page and these latter ones are on the gold page.... doh.

Maybe OAC 816 is closer (mostly covered by feathers) or OAC816 it's daylight now --- so probably more accurate than my previous shot.

Hi Chickcat. This sure has been a lively topic and hopefully will help clarify what people are thinking!


Although I am not a huge fan of the OAC for feather color designations (light interplays with the feather structure too much to modify the colors so I think it is too difficult to compare) which is also why photographs are to problematic to judge color--there may be a huge value in getting some rooster hackle and saddle feathers in the same room to compare side by side.

What if we had you (or another volunteer if you are too busy) be a hackle/saddle repository? Interested people could mail in:

1) a representative photo of their rooster along with
2) whether they think the bird is genetically Ig/ig or ig/ig
3) what they think of the cream color--like maybe have a 10 point scale where 5 is ideal cream and 1 is white and 10 is gold.
4) a feather or two pulled from a designated area (like the lowest row of the mid-line from the area) of both the saddle and hackle so that those feathers could be compared side by side with roosters from other flocks. We would also have to have them identify how old the feather was as they may bleach out or become brassy with sun exposure.

I for one would be very interested to see my rooster compared to yours. Maybe its not the amount of cream, but rather another factor like the amount of black barring that is making the color appear more or less cream from a distance. Reminds me of a Seurat painting--he used lots of stippled dots of contrasting colors that up close looked like one color but when viewed from afar gave a very different impression and formed a beautiful picture. Maybe my cream boy only appears cream becasue he is so melanized? That sort of thing.

 

[chicken pickin]

Hi Chickcat. This sure has been a lively topic and hopefully will help clarify what people are thinking!


Although I am not a huge fan of the OAC for feather color designations (light interplays with the feather structure too much to modify the colors so I think it is too difficult to compare) which is also why photographs are to problematic to judge color--there may be a huge value in getting some rooster hackle and saddle feathers in the same room to compare side by side.

What if we had you (or another volunteer if you are too busy) be a hackle/saddle repository? Interested people could mail in:

1) a representative photo of their rooster along with
2) whether they think the bird is genetically Ig/ig or ig/ig
3) what they think of the cream color--like maybe have a 10 point scale where 5 is ideal cream and 1 is white and 10 is gold.
4) a feather or two pulled from a designated area (like the lowest row of the mid-line from the area) of both the saddle and hackle so that those feathers could be compared side by side with roosters from other flocks. We would also have to have them identify how old the feather was as they may bleach out or become brassy with sun exposure.

I for one would be very interested to see my rooster compared to yours. Maybe its not the amount of cream, but rather another factor like the amount of black barring that is making the color appear more or less cream from a distance. Reminds me of a Seurat painting--he used lots of stippled dots of contrasting colors that up close looked like one color but when viewed from afar gave a very different impression and formed a beautiful picture. Maybe my cream boy only appears cream becasue he is so melanized? That sort of thing.

I think this is an absolutely fantastic idea. This could be so beneficial to figuring out what people have and what is ideal (as well as the low and high end). I would also be interested in doing this, if enough people wanted to participate and we could figure out a way to record it all and make it useful. Good thinking.

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

I think this is an absolutely fantastic idea. This could be so beneficial to figuring out what people have and what is ideal (as well as the low and high end). I would also be interested in doing this, if enough people wanted to participate and we could figure out a way to record it all and make it useful. Good thinking.

I agree, I think it would be a great thing to do. Honestly, I am still so confused about what the ideal color is that I have been trying not to worry about it too much and just work on type and all the other problems I have with my birds.

I also really like the idea that Chickat had of a picture range. I realize pictures aren't always the best but I think they would be really helpful to new people like me that want to participate in this but are still having problems identifying what good coloration looks like. Picture line ups for type would be awesome too.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi Chickcat. This sure has been a lively topic and hopefully will help clarify what people are thinking!


Although I am not a huge fan of the OAC for feather color designations (light interplays with the feather structure too much to modify the colors so I think it is too difficult to compare) which is also why photographs are to problematic to judge color--there may be a huge value in getting some rooster hackle and saddle feathers in the same room to compare side by side.

What if we had you (or another volunteer if you are too busy) be a hackle/saddle repository? Interested people could mail in:

1) a representative photo of their rooster along with
2) whether they think the bird is genetically Ig/ig or ig/ig
3) what they think of the cream color--like maybe have a 10 point scale where 5 is ideal cream and 1 is white and 10 is gold.
4) a feather or two pulled from a designated area (like the lowest row of the mid-line from the area) of both the saddle and hackle so that those feathers could be compared side by side with roosters from other flocks. We would also have to have them identify how old the feather was as they may bleach out or become brassy with sun exposure.

I for one would be very interested to see my rooster compared to yours. Maybe its not the amount of cream, but rather another factor like the amount of black barring that is making the color appear more or less cream from a distance. Reminds me of a Seurat painting--he used lots of stippled dots of contrasting colors that up close looked like one color but when viewed from afar gave a very different impression and formed a beautiful picture. Maybe my cream boy only appears cream becasue he is so melanized? That sort of thing.

chicken pickin

Amen to that! It seems that we are going in circles -- and telling everyone to 'do your best interpretation of the SOP ' doesn't seem to have closed the gap in the last 12-18 months. I would like some thoughts from readers of this thread if the distance between dretd's UK winning look-alike - and say chicken pickin's avatar - or Kpenley's birds is too great a target range. One alternative - I had pictured in the article on the chicken calculator is Diane MacDonald's two -- one light one with more color -- closer perhaps together than the previous idea....

dretd -

Feather color inventory -- this is a fabulous idea... I will send you some feathers from the saddle of this pelt (Hackle too if you would like)--- and you can mail me some -- Now what biosecurity will we need to protect eachother's flock -- just a zip lock bag?? ;O)

As far as being the repository person -- I really will have to decline on that one-- with everything up in the air that I am juggling -- and getting organized to have a virtual show in the fall for 4H kids -- and arranging their prizes etc... it would be kind of irresponsible to take on the task. I do know of some brilliant CL people who would do a superb job at executing your idea.... Club members and active on BYC -- and the initials are.... (well I will wait to see if anyone will be interested in being the person to run the project and volunteer -- it is a great idea IMO)

It would also be so interesting to me to see the numbers of people in the CL community and most especially the Cream Legbar Club -- since that is who the APA will be working with to get breed acceptance, who have flocks that fall into one or the other category..... anyone else curious?

 

[ChicKat]

I agree, I think it would be a great thing to do. Honestly, I am still so confused about what the ideal color is that I have been trying not to worry about it too much and just work on type and all the other problems I have with my birds.

I also really like the idea that Chickat had of a picture range. I realize pictures aren't always the best but I think they would be really helpful to new people like me that want to participate in this but are still having problems identifying what good coloration looks like. Picture line ups for type would be awesome too.

To start the dicussion - I will post some examples -- Hopefully those who support the really light and those who support the really colorful will weigh in. The one who's saddle is in the previous post, I designated as 'as light as I would ever go' -- so if those of you who are serious about the breed could post your examples of your farthest acceptable to light and your farthest acceptable to colorful -- maybe we could make some progress..... I think Elissa's look-alike is close enough to UK to use that one and then it is depersonalized to a degree. But I think I have to go with chicken pickin's cream in her avatar that is pictured here as the light end, so it can't be depersonalized there. Diane MacDonald's birds are on the website -- and -- did I hear a rumor that she has left Cream Legbars and gone to Ayam Cemani (Betcha they don't argue about color over in that breed...;O) )




ETA CP - I think I got the right guy - and if there is a different picture that shows it better -- please let me know!


also for reference, I think that this is an example of a middle-of-the road CL - from sol2go who was thinking it was gold - but I'm not so sure if we change one word in the SOP that it wouldn't become cream.




And for colorful people, here is a gold for reference: and for reference -- here is the color I would propose for the 'colorful' CL -- add a barring gene if it is missing, or strengthen one of the two and it would be 'gold crele' plumage pattern:




so please weigh in on your views. Also if you read this thread it is suggested that the Applegarth pair would be the reference point to say -- lighter than or darker than...or however the correct terminology has evloved. THANKS!!!