Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

I was using the imperfect Brabanters as a way to illustrate how difficult multiple varieties with similar genetics can be to distinguish when working with imperfect birds. It appears from the pics that some of these could be bad golds or bad cream with no easy way to tell which you have. I think with multiple varieties in the CLB this would also be a problem.

EXACTLY - what about the ones on the boarder line....

However, my point is still that perhaps NONE of those actually cream Brabanters are 'bad Brabanters' - it could be that in that breed they accept a range.

And the gold will also have some variations in the intensity IMO

 

[fowlman01]

I was using the imperfect Brabanters as a way to illustrate how difficult multiple varieties with similar genetics can be to distinguish when working with imperfect birds. It appears from the pics that some of these could be bad golds or bad cream with no easy way to tell which you have. I think with multiple varieties in the CLB this would also be a problem.

Good point Chris.

Walt

 

[caychris]

EXACTLY - what about the ones on the boarder line....

However, my point is still that perhaps NONE of those actually cream Brabanters are 'bad Brabanters' - it could be that in that breed they accept a range.

And the gold will also have some variations in the intensity IMO

I understood that but there were a few pics that made me think is this really a cream or is it a gold. Mostly the ones with what looked like limited gold. I do accept the range of cream. I mean how pale is pale and what color is your butter anyway. The most important thing is what the judges think it is. That is why the definition is so important.

 

[caychris]

EXACTLY - what about the ones on the boarder line....

However, my point is still that perhaps NONE of those actually cream Brabanters are 'bad Brabanters' - it could be that in that breed they accept a range.

And the gold will also have some variations in the intensity IMO

This brings to mind something more along the lines of the BBS breeds Like Langshans

Where the only difference in the birds is the selective breeding for color.

While the color patterns are more complex I think there is something to the chestnut and diluted gold genetics that is similar to the BBS breeds. Just imagine if all that was accepted were Black Langshans. The pretty blue and splash birds would be considered incorrect.

I think in some ways the introduction of the genetics that have brought about the blue egg have introduced something to heighten that BBS like effect in the CLB that wasnt as present in the Gold Legbar (Silver being more of a sport related issue like the Delaware)

Another plug for classifying these birds differently than their cousins (Gold and Silver)

Maybe someone with Gold Legbars could chime in if they have similar issues with variation in their birds but I seriously doubt that there is confusion as to if their bird is gold or silver and obviously not Cream.

 

[1muttsfan]

As Kendy stated above -- our Club president has also said that there doesn't appear to be enough difference in the hens to be a different variety - at this point.

I agree to that - will post a few pics later

Its my understanding that the whites would still carry the barring gene but without the color to restrict it wouldnt present (or be extremely faint as to not be seen easily)

They are very difficult to sex

There are lots of ways in which a breeder may depart from the CLB to a new breed I was just thinking that subselecting a color variation isnt the way to go about it at least not yet.

I agree, although selecting a genotypically and phenotypically different look that is clearly a CL in all ways other than color would be a start


I think it is good for those wanting alternative legbars to begin identifying their Cream Legbars with the proposed standard first as a point of departure first. Without that standard (which should promote the breed as is enough to get people breeding them) there is no point of reference to approach a different breed.

Hear, Hear

We must continue to work beyond color as being only as the defining characteristic of this breed.


Does that make my position as clear as mud

VERY interesting regarding standards in general...and breeds like ours with sexual dimorphism. Some show breeders for some breeds (I have read more about this in writings from the UK) - have what they call a 'pullet-breeding line' and a 'cock-breeding line' - This is the idea of dual mating -- etc. --- The reason that they do this is the SOP describes the two looks so differently that for the people who want to excell in shows they have one or the other

I think part of the problem with our breed - was a strong attempt to make it look silver-white. Perhaps this is correct - but then if that WERE the case - the UK SOP should have said silver instead of cream -- and it didn't.

Yes - in showing it is what an individual bird LOOK like, not it's genetic makeup, that counts - so if they were intended to LOOK silver, that would be clearly stated, instead of Cream

I understood that but there were a few pics that made me think is this really a cream or is it a gold. Mostly the ones with what looked like limited gold. I do accept the range of cream. I mean how pale is pale and what color is your butter anyway. The most important thing is what the judges think it is. That is why the definition is so important.

I would love to see some pictures of CL's that were definitely gold (and not sun-diluted), which we knew for sure did not have cream, as a comparison point.

 

[ChicKat]

It's time to close this thread....and move the discussion of vibrant saturated coloration to this thread:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...-not-breeding-to-the-proposed-cream-standards

As soon as I get the article finished for the CL Club's next newsletter - I'll be back here for a final summary.

I agree to that - will post a few pics later

Yes - in showing it is what an individual bird LOOK like, not it's genetic makeup, that counts - so if they were intended to LOOK silver, that would be clearly stated, instead of Cream

I would love to see some pictures of CL's that were definitely gold (and not sun-diluted), which we knew for sure did not have cream, as a comparison point.

The thread mentioned above is the perfect place for any that people know are definitely gold..... and I would have liked to see some of the ones here that were referred to but never pictured.

See y'all in the other thread.

 

[chicken pickin]

Thank You for this wonderful thread @ChicKat so much was discussed and I think we all learned a lot through the conversations, discussions, walk-thrus and pictures.

 

[1muttsfan]

Thanks ChicKat nice job

 

[ChicKat]

SUMMARY 3 - part 3 - and final Wrap up

Start date for the thread is 10/13/14. Between then and now, 6/7/15, a great deal of information has surfaced and the pendulum of opinion has shifted considerably.

Back then people were told that the only ‘to standard’ CL was very light - with somewhat irregular barring and all others were ‘gold legbars’.

To preserve the birds that were purchased and raised as Cream Legbars by their owners, often particularly for the unique beauty of their plumage, only to be told that they weren’t Cream Legbars - lead to investigating if an additional standard was needed to cover these ‘more colorful’ Cream Legbars. So at that time - ‘more colorful’ meant those that did not look monochromatically a hue that photographed as white with some barring.

By delving into what a true gold legbar WAS, it seems that didn’t match the majority of Cream Legbars that most folks are raising (e.g. neither a true gold nor the at that time popular ultra light idea).

When the Legbars attributed to David Applegarth surfaced, and the UK’s 2014 Nationals produced a winner that was distinctly unlike the proposed ultra light look of October 2014 - it seemed very clear to me that many previously excluded Cream Legbars could now be included as Cream Legbars. By including Cream Legbars that resembled the David Applegarth male and female and Cream Legbars that more closely resembled the 2014 UK Nationals winner - ( and why would either of these examples be excluded - since David Applegarth is credited with rescuing the breed, and it is somewhat doubtful that he and Fancy Fowl Magazine would print errors, and since the UK Nationals are the highest Exhibition Poultry Contest in the UK, it seems logical that these examples would show correct Cream Legbars).

It was at that time that the conclusion seemed obvious to me that an added SOP for Cream Legbars that resembled the Applegarth or the 2014 Nationals winner would NOT be needed. No one spoke up at the time to voice an alternative opinion. The thread went dormant for awhile.

Recently someone was told to ‘cull’ their Cream Legbar beacuse it was too colorful, and the investigation of the need for an additional SOP was revisited. Even more information was brought up in the recent reviews. As a result, we all learned quite a lot (I know I did) - we argued a little - (It happens among poultry people from time to time) and a new thread to investigate the need for additional SOP(s) was created.

The roots of considering only a silver-looking CL as the correct CL are probably from these statements by Michael Pease:

With regard to the appearance of a silver crele bird, one may think he referenced this look:


In real life here is an example of Silver chickens - and indeed it could look indistinguishable to cream:

Silver Welbars from ‘Nick’ in Australia.


And here an example of a silver bird from the USA

silver game - winner at 2014 Texas State Fair

The above images of Silver would indeed be indistinguishable from Cream.

Another time that the Cream Legbar is indistinguishable from Silver is when the cockerels are immature - and show only black and white cuckoo barring.

​

The pendulum moved from thinking only the lower right corner of this diagram would be considered a Cream Legbar



to including more of the ‘pale butter’ color that judges in the UK indicated was cream.

Regarding the statement by Pease that the Chick down was like the Gold Legbar, and the later inclusion in the UK SOP that the chick down was like the Silver Legbar -- since Gold and Silver Legbars would have the same genetics dictating the appearance of their plumage as the Gold and Silver Crele Leghorns. (wild-type and barring) - These images show how both could be right and the difference in the chick down is very hard to discern.


One more reference to Silver. The Silver Leghorn is a silver duckwing Leghorn and carries a great deal of black. Could some of the references to looking like a Silver - have meant that the Duckwing pattern would be discernable on a Cream Legbar? Lately I have seen examples of the Cream Legbar where the barring has begun to fly in formation - and it is a very attractive look. Here is a Silver Leghorn Male -- also called a Silver duckwing.

Internet image


Add barring to the above, and you would have the appearance of a Silver Legbar (or Silver Crele Leghorn) - change the resulting chicken's white (silver) to Cream - and you would have a Cream Legbar in appearance if you added the crest.

As asked before - I will ask again - when saying lighter than or darker than - or less colorful than or more colorful than - please put a reference down as to what the 'than' references...does it represent the 2014 UK winning Cockerel? Does it represent the 2013 winning cockerel. IMO it would add more meaning to such conversations.

Thanks again to all who participated in this thread!!! IT was very much a learning experience.

For my flock, I am going to use the Diane Jacky Image here:

especially for the back length and tail angles and the true deep salmon on the female - My birds will probably be more upright forever, combined with the crele patterning here - and the coloration at the middle row showing that the gold has been diluted to the appearance of from 25% to 40% for the targets for my own flock.


in order to breed these birds well we need a clear target. This will be mine.

Meanwhile, you better start hatching now -- so that the chickens you take to the Winter shows will be at just that right age for showing.... And to discuss those with 'more color' -- than, lets say the UK 2014 winning cockerel - jump over to this thread.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...-not-breeding-to-the-proposed-cream-standards

happy Trails to you one and all - see you at the Poultry Show!

 

[TwoCrows]

The OP has chosen to lock this thread. Thank you all for your participation!