Do Welsummmer have leg problems?

[Cuban Longtails]

My wellies have all come from breeders, never had any leg issues.

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
Hey there --

No offense taken.

I have hatched roughly 200-250 chicks (in several breeds) since this past winter, all raised on the same regimen, as well as all the chicks and started birds I've bought from other sources. Some of those eggs were produced by my own birds (especially bantam cochins and bantam araucanas), some of those eggs were shipped to me (including Wellies, Marans, and several others).

Occasional chicks have temporarily had mild angel wing symptoms while growing their first primaries, but none of those lasted for more than a couple of days.

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
You give calcium grit and "regular" grit free choice. Excess calcium stresses the kidneys. For example: "The nutrients that have lower safety margins and must be fed more wisely are calcium and vitamin D3. Research in poultry shows that feeding too much calcium to birds that aren't laying eggs, and therefore using up calcium, can cause kidney disease. Calcium levels over 1.2% will cause kidney disease in nonlaying chickens. "

That's from Tom Roudybush, a well known avian researcher and nutritionist --

http://home1.gte.net/impekabl/kid.htm

 

[Dirt Road]

"The nutrients that have lower safety margins and must be fed more wisely are calcium and vitamin D3. Research in poultry shows that feeding too much calcium to birds that aren't laying eggs, and therefore using up calcium, can cause kidney disease. Calcium levels over 1.2% will cause kidney disease in nonlaying chickens. "

That's from Tom Roudybush, a well known avian researcher and nutritionist --

http://home1.gte.net/impekabl/kid.htm

The article you reference doesn't provide any reference links, but I suspect the number (1.2%) is a percentage of total diet. I am very familiar with Roudybush, having been in the exotic bird business for 35 years. While his work is interesting, a lot of folks in the industry feel his research has been at least a little bit biased by his desire to promote his product. Which has nothing to do with chickens.
Getting back to the OP, I would love to hear from some other folks who have Welsumers. It seems odd to me that several people have experienced basically the same problem, while others have not. If there is a common denominator at work it would be well worth while to ferret it out. I would be grateful if those who have had this problem would post the results of any changes they might have tried, or just the passage of time.

Jim​

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
Well heck, that's just the first quote that came to hand. It's a well-known problem -- I didn't really expect you to argue about it!

Here's some more refs for ya, just a few that are easily accessible --

"Excess absorbed calcium is excreted through kidneys; high levels cause ureter and kidney impaction, resulting in nephrosis....High mortality from hyperuricemia with visceral urate deposits may result from kidney damage because of high dietary calcium. Lung pathology with damage to parenchyma from calcium deposits may also occur in young chicks."
-- p. 1138, Diseases of Poultry by YM Saif

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I'm including this next one because it specifically used layer ration --

"Experiments were designed to evaluate the effect of dietary acidification on the development of kidney lesions induced by excess dietary calcium (Ca) and Gray strain infectious bronchitis virus (IBV). Specific pathogen-free (SPF) chicks and SPF chicks inoculated with Gray strain IBV were fed one of three diets: a commercial pullet grower ration (1% Ca); a commercial layer ration (3.25% Ca); or layer ration plus .5% ammonium chloride (acidified layer ration). ....The layer ration induced a 60% incidence of kidney lesions, caused a significant increase in kidney weight asymmetry ratios, and caused a 25% reduction in the number of filtering nephrons....."
-- Poult Sci. 1987 Apr;66(4):626-33. Effect of dietary acidification on kidney damage induced in immature chickens by excess calcium and infectious bronchitis virus.

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"High calcium diet during rearing periods and increase
nitrogen intake in the form of urea; lead to degenerative
changes in various tissues, nephritis and the induction
of uroliths in chickens (Chandra et al., 1984 b, Beckman
1995).[....]

"Furthermore, Lent and Wideman, (1994) revealed that
excess calcium significantly reduced glomerular filtration
rate, affected renal plasma flow and phosphorous
excretion rates as well as significantly increased
calcium excretion and urine pH. It is believed that
mortality accompanied by visceral urate deposition
occurs when the amount of unobstructed renal tissues."
International Journal of Poultry Science 5 (10): 992-995, 2006. Association Between Serum Biochemistry of Leghorn Chickens and Changes in Renal Tissues Induced by High Calcium and High Urea Diets. Abdul-Rahman S. Al-Ankari

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"Most clinical cases of acute renal failure and urate deposition in commercial poultry are due to dehydration, ingestion of feed containing >3% calcium by nonlaying chickens, renal infection by nephrotropic strains of infectious bronchitis virus, or infection with avian nephritis virus.....Urolithiasis is common in older laying chickens. Brittle, white, staghorn calcium urate calculi form in one or both ureters. Most cases are due to feeding high-calcium laying feed to hens not in egg production, infection with infectious bronchitis virus, or severe vitamin A deficiency. If blockage is complete, acute postrenal failure develops, and birds die with acute urate deposition on visceral surfaces or less commonly in joint spaces. If blockage is incomplete or unilateral, chickens survive in compensated renal failure, and chronic urate deposits form in joint spaces. "
Merck Veterinary Manual --
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/204606.htm

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I could keep going, but I hope you get the point!

 

[chickloving]

Back to the question about the percentage of calcium - the grower I am feeding has only 16% protein - so it doesn't seem to me that is the problem. The feed is fresh as I buy weekly. We have 78 chickens - several different breeds. We have 2 birds which show these symptoms of leg problems - my welsummer and the largest of our light brahma rooster. All the other chickens are perfectly fine. I was not so concerned about the light brahma as we have other roos to choose from for breeders.

 

[chickloving]

Oops, the above entry should have read the percentage of protein as 16% (not calcium)!

 

[amazondoc]

Chickloving -- I would worry about Mycoplasma synoviae, which can cause joint problems. If you were on a really high protein diet I might also worry about that, but you obviously aren't.

 

[Dirt Road]

amazondoc;
Certainly didn't mean to be argumentative. Intent is to offer my own thoughts as part of the discussion. I sincerely doubt that I will ever know everything about anything!
Thanks for the other references. I do note that they generally mention calcium levels in the 3% range whereas Roudybush used a number of 1.2%. My real point was that all, are I think, discussing calcium as a percentage of total diet, which would not generally be applicable to the average back yard flock, since few small flocks are kept on a diet of laying ration only. As I mentioned earlier, my birds are free ranged other than youngsters which are confined to avoid feral cats, hawks, etc. I think that most small flock owners supplement, as I do, with greens, scratch and other treats to the extent that the laying ration is considerably reduced as a total percentage of the diet. I suspect the research is done with birds in close confinement, on a diet of layer ration only. Probably because nearly all of the financing comes from the poultry industry, or the gov't, as a benefit for same.
I actually did not think that calcium was the source of the problem with the 'gimp' Welsumers, but was blaming too high protein levels. However in light of chickloving's post that may not be correct either! The problem did go away after the protein level was decreased, and the grow-out pen was plenty roomy to allow adequate exercise.

Jim

 

[amazondoc]

Jim -- This is the original statement you made:

Quote:
In reality, the problems with calcium in non-laying birds are not "stories", but rather proven facts. I'm not interested in debating about the exact % of calcium necessary to cause problems, I have simply established the overall truth that calcium CAN easily cause problems at levels that are commonly found in layer feeds and not "abnormally high" at all.

Now, maybe we can get back to the question about leg problems?