Do you think dogs feel pride or sense of accomplishment in a task?

[EweSheep]

A dog getting a praise would do MORE than the ones that just know a task on hand by instinct or habit.

 

[welsummerchicks]

So how would you explain that forty five minutes of class off the leash, during which he did not get any more praise than for plenty of other things in his life, would be the one thing that "flipped the switch" and permanently so?

Sounds like I'm not really allowed to disagree, LOL! 'So how would you explain...' - so I have to defend my POV now. I won't. I'll explain more why I think the way I do, but I won't defend myself.

How would I explain it? Maturity, growing up, subtler smaller changes along the way that didn't hit you til that class, practice, getting more confirmed in the work, a more domineering dog is no longer in the class, changes/corrections the instructor gave you to your methods, stance, body language that made the dog more sure of what he was doing - a million tiny little things can change and add up to a dog that simply looks better while working.

So many things are possible. I used to watch this one lady work her dogs - she had about a dozen so we saw her work many many dogs over the years. She had a habit of wiggling her fingers nervously 'as if you're signing to yourself!!!!!' said the trainer. He finally got her to stop, though for months she protested that it 'made no difference', the dogs 'were obedient, so what is the problem?' He isisted the problems would become really obvious when she did more off leash work, where the dog had to make more decisions, like in retrieving and scent discrimination. The demeanor of EVERY dog she worked with changed when she stopped those little motions of her fingers. No more flattened ears, lowered tail, reluctant look to the work.

In other cases, it was simply because an owner got more consistent in his or her body language/stance. Til then, the dog was always slightly wondering what he was supposed to do. Dogs work better, they wag their tails more, they look 'happier' when they are more sure of what is expected.

We tend to interpret what we see to add up to what we want our conclusions to be. Two people will look at the same thing and have different, very different opinions about what just happened in that stiuation. Happens all the time.

You and I might look at the same dog training scene and I'd say the dog started looking 'happier' after the handler became more consistent, and you'd say the dog had 'satisfaction at doing a good job'. We'd see it differently.

If the dog doesn't look like he's enjoying himself, I think I am doing something that prevents the dog from being sure in his work. And that's how I handle my dogs. If they don't look 'happy', they don't look 'eager', they aren't like, 'oh boy, she's getting the leash!' I assume there's something wrong with how I'm training. I try to figure out what that is. I want to see a really positive look in the dog.

When I took a training class with my Scottish Deerhound the trainer was just - he was stunned. He could not believe how 'happily' that dog worked. But I also would do what I felt right for the dog - if they were drilling drilling drilling beyond what the dog seemed to need or be positive about, I told the trainer, 'My back hurts' or 'my knee hurts' and I'd sit down and relax with the dog. If I felt like the dog NEEDED the repetition, I'd stay in the ground and keep working.

Seems to me if it were just praise, well, this dog is not exactly suffering from a deficiency of praise in his life LOL and there are certainly things he's gotten BIGGER praise for e.g. when he originally learned to potty on cue or turning back when recalled from chasing a bird or one of the cats.

As above. Generally, the student and the dog simply get to a point where the work is confirmed and the dog is 'solid' on the work. Something changes, so the dog's body language/expression changes.

We see our dogs how we want to see them, and we won't be disuaded, so I won't try.

Why do I believe so?

One day, just to rattle our cages, our trainer had us switch around after we left our dogs for a sit stay. We were no longer directly across the training room from our dogs.

Then he shouted, 'I bet you think you've been teaching your dogs to recall for the last 3 weeks, right????? You think they'll come to you, right????' Then he started chuckling and I knew we were about to get - chumped. LOL.

He had us call our dogs. All the dogs (except mine who had been working several weeks ahead of the class) pretty much - went to where the person HAD stood. We weren't teaching our dogs anything near what we thought we were teaching them, because we didn't understand how they think.

HIS point was this - WE thought our dogs were confirmed on the recall command. THEY WERE NOT. We thought they were, because we did not really understand how dogs think. Our dogs were weeks and weeks away from being confirmed on recalls.

But that is why people get frustrated, why they make training mistakes. Because they don't understand how dogs think.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

I think dogs respond mostly to pressure and relief of pressure. When they've done something right, the pressure is relieved. As you are working on something new the pressure is there but at a learning level. When they do something wrong, the pressure increases as can the dog's anxiety.

As a dog learns to learn, they start to "get" the process of learning and I know they start to look forward to it if their temperament is geared towards working directly with their owner. Some dogs really could care less. The more you teach a dog the better and faster he learns, thus also learning to deal with the mental pressure of training (learning).

Now..on the flip side of the dog looking pleased in direct relation to praise (and relief of pressure) I have seen dogs get excited all by themselves when they have accomplished something new (without the owner expecting something or even without the owner there at all....)

Is this the dog feeling proud of himself? I dont' know, and in some cases I would say absolutely yes.

Some dogs just enjoy learning.

 

[welsummerchicks]

The dog I have now is a flippin' FIEND to work. I've had several trainers comment. But I don't believe I've ever had one that wasn't. REALLY serious in his work too.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
No, I was actually just, like it says, asking how you would explain it from your system of thinking <shrug>. Which you then explained, so now I know. (I still dont' agree but at least I know what your explanation would be)

But that is why people get frustrated, why they make training mistakes. Because they don't understand how dogs think.

Yeah well, nobody "understands" how animals think, unless you believe in animal communicators talking to 'em.

You personally may believe that your methods work "because you understand how dogs/horses think", but, <shrug>

All this "how animals think" is just our guesses and interpretations, it is not something we can ever KNOW.

End of the day, what matters is whether what you are doing WORKS. What you're doing works, fine; what I'm doing works too

Pat​

 

[abluechipstock]

i know i have a dachshund that when she had puppies she would run to company and run back to her babies until the company saw her babies, like she was proud of what she done, that usually sold the puppies for me, since she was such a sweet dog

 

[Buff Hooligans]

Pat, enjoy your super-sweety of a dog. I think dogs definitely know when they do something that will result in praise & treats. They certainly know when they do things wrong.

 

[verity]

***well, one of our dogs most definitely exhibited something that, if it wasn't pride I have no name for. -- and, believe me, it was not because of 'praise'---

***"Chyna" (very small Japanese Chin) hopped to a chair and then on to the table to get an egg I was decorating (and was only half-finished) -- she took it by the ribbon-hanger, managed to get down without breaking it and then actually 'paraded' around with the egg in front of the other dogs and the cats who were most likely saying, 'Dang, we shoulda thought of that' ---

I don't believe that dogs or any other animals 'think in words' as 'Well, I surely did a good job herding the sheep today' or 'I am so jealous that Mitzi has a new chew-toy and I don't' or 'My best buddy isn't here any longer -- I surely do miss him' but I DO think they FEEL this kind of emotion --

I am an old lady who has had many, many animals who were a part of our family and I have seen this again and again --

 

[Rusty Hills Farm]

I don't believe that dogs or any other animals 'think in words' as 'Well, I surely did a good job herding the sheep today' or 'I am so jealous that Mitzi has a new chew-toy and I don't' or 'My best buddy isn't here any longer -- I surely do miss him' but I DO think they FEEL this kind of emotion --

Bingo!

Rusty​

 

[Mak]

I didn't mean to imply that I think dogs reason, but I do believe they think. They don't feel the same type of pride or accomplishment you or I would. That's not how they work. But they do know when they are doing something that satisfies.... an instinct? Or drive in them to accomplish or do some sort of work. And it makes a difference in the dog's overall demeanor. I know Murphy is not reasoning out each step of what we ask him to do at class or here at home, but he is "thinking" about it, in his own dog way.

But it is hard to put it into words that don't sound "human."