Dog Breeding Question

[Cowgirl71]

We bought a large herd of goats last year along with four Great Pyrenees dogs, who stay with the goats and protect them from predation (they did an excellent job this year, we didn't lose a single goat to predation out of 300+, most of which were babies!). But anyway, we bought four Pyrenees females. One we bought as a spayed adult ("Karma"), another we bought as a three year old, not spayed ("Nommi"), and we also bought two sister puppies, not spayed ("Heidi" and "Sheba"). When Sheba and Heidi got to be about 10 months old they both went into heat. The neighbor's dogs would come over here, Heidi and Sheba would go over there, there was no keeping them separate. Nommi would not allow the neighbor's dogs to breed her, however she was fine with them being in the herd, so long as they left her precious goats alone. Two months later Sheba had five mongrel puppies. Heidi did not. Earlier this year the same thing happened. Sheba and Heidi were in heat, Nommi still would have nothing to do with the neighbor's dogs, and two months later Sheba has a litter of eight puppies. Heidi again has no puppies. So we decide that Heidi must be sterile, which is a shame because we had plans of eventually getting a male and breeding the females so that we can sell small herds of goats, complete with a dog or two. Heidi was certainly being quite the naughty little slut, very flirtatious if you know what I mean. But we never actually saw her being bred.

But anyway, this summer we finally found a mature intact Pyrenees male. Heidi and Nommi both went into heat in October (Sheba was still recovering from her last litter). They went into heat a week apart, so "Big Guy" (he came with that name) was able to stick like glue to each of the girls for a few days, keeping the neighbor's dogs well away from "his girl." I saw him breed Heidi October 30th. She seemed in pain. She was whining and yelping and trying to pull away, but couldn't. A week ago we started noticing that she was getting quite thick in her mid-section, and her teats were developing. So we're very thrilled!!!! Our first purebred litter!!! But my question is.... Could it be that "Heidi the slut" was holding out for a livestock guardian male, like a good female livestock guardian dog should? Is what I witnessed evidence for the fact that she had never been bred before? That she was a virgin? Or no???

Please try to keep your response as family-friendly as possible, or PM me. Thanks!

 

[sourland]

It is most likely that the neighbor dogs were just unable to get the job done. Heidi was not 'holding out' for the proper mate. The pain was caused by the swelling that causes the tie when the female is bred and has little to with the status of her sexual experience. Family friendly enough?

 

[Cowgirl71]

It is most likely that the neighbor dogs were just unable to get the job done. Heidi was not 'holding out' for the proper mate. The pain was caused by the swelling that causes the tie when the female is bred and has little to with the status of her sexual experience. Family friendly enough?

Thank you.

I felt uncomfortable asking the question, but I didn't have the guts to ask someone in person, or even a vet over the phone.

I'm fairly familiar with cattle and goats in that way, but dogs are rather different...

From my what I've read, the puppies are due New Years Day! Hopefully everything goes well, I can't wait!

Thanks again!

 

[zazouse]

Some of your pups may not be pure if the neighborhood dogs could get to her and don't think they couldn't just cause you have a male.

 

[Fly 2006]

May I ask, are you managing to find good homes for these X breeds that you are allowing your dogs to have? There are so many poor dogs in rescue looking for homes, I have to say just allowing your dogs to breed with whatever happens along is in my opinion very irresponsible unless of course you don't have the stray dog problem where you live?

 

[Cowgirl71]

Some of your pups may not be pure if the neighborhood dogs could get to her and don't think they couldn't just cause you have a male.

Yes, we realize that this is a possibility. But we should be able to tell wether or not the pups are mongrels before we sell them to anyone as purebreds. But I think if you saw how possesive he was of his girls when they were in heat, and the obvious preference the girls showed for him over the smaller neighbor's dog, I think you'd agree with me that the pups are nearly guaranteed to be sired by Big Guy.

"Marley" was the only one of the neighbor's dogs that had the guts to hang around when our girls were in heat with Big Guy. The other male dogs were too scared of Big Guy to hang around. Big Guy and Marley fought constantly. They both got beat up pretty good, Big Guy had several gashes, Marley had several puncture wounds and a broken jaw. With the owner's permission, we put Marley down. Marley had also frequently chased our cows on our property, so it wasn't like Marley was being a great dog before we got Big Guy...

All that to say, Marley won't be a problem anymore, and none of the other male dogs have the guts (or the stupidity) to challenge Big Guy. So we shouldn't have to worry about mongrel pups anymore...

 

[Cowgirl71]

May I ask, are you managing to find good homes for these X breeds that you are allowing your dogs to have? There are so many poor dogs in rescue looking for homes, I have to say just allowing your dogs to breed with whatever happens along is in my opinion very irresponsible unless of course you don't have the stray dog problem where you live?

We did find homes for two of them. The rest were chasing the goats and actually fatally injured a baby while "playing" with it, so we put them down. This may sound harsh, but the animal shelter charges you $40 per dog to take them in, and then most of them just get put to sleep anyway. It's sad, but it's just the way it is. Everybody's so concerned about the adorable puppies and kittens without homes, and the beautiful horses being slaughtered for meat, but I rarely hear anyone talking about how cruel the commercial dairy industry is, where the average lifespan for a cow is only four and a half years, when under better conditions that same cow could have a productive lifespan of 8-10 years or more. 85% of the ground beef at the grocery store is from "old" dairy cows. Or how about the feedlots that churn out millions of pounds of beef annually, standing knee deep in their own manure. Or the sows that are used for breeding in commercial farms, who spend most of their lives in an area so small they can't even turn around. And many people on this site are familiar with the commercial chicken industry. For layers, chicks are hatched, the males are ground alive to be used for pet food and fertilizer, and the females are kept for egg production. The females spend their entire short laying life crammed into a small cage with other hens, and eventually on the grocery store shelves themselves in the form of canned chicken noodle soup. Or the meat chicken industry, where chicks are hatched, raised in their own manure, are bred to grow so huge so fast that they can barely walk, they never see the light of day, and then they are butchered at eight weeks old. We as a society are so blissfully ignorant of how our cheap food is produced. I'm glad to see the growing movement to buy locally from places that raise grass-fed humanely-treated animals for meat, milk, and eggs. But there's still many people who donate to the places that rescue dogs and cats and horses, and then they stop and get a burger on their way home from work. I myself try to boycott the industry, which also results in eating far healthier food as well. I haven't bought eggs from a store in five years, I have a few milk cows (which all have names) and make my own dairy products, and I raise or buy locally from a farm 98+% of our meat. But I better get off my soap box now, hopefully I haven't ruffled up any feathers...

But anyway, we bought our Pyrenees females with the intention of getting a purebred male to produce purebred puppies. And may I mention that the male we got is of very high quality and from registered stock, as are the females. Also, our Great Pyrenees dogs are not pets. They are large working dogs. People who buy our puppies will be buying them as working dogs, not pets. Our dogs protect our goats from predation. We would lose a high percentage of our goats to predators such as coyotes and mountain lions if we did not have the dogs. Their job is more than just "man's best friend" (we have a neutered Golden Retriever/Labrador Retriever mix that we got from an animal shelter for that).

For whatever it's worth, we also get meat scraps from the local butcher every week. We get a huge pile, a dog's paradise. They feast on the pile and usually turn down dog food for a few days afterwards. You should of seen the look on Big Guy's face when he first laid eyes on the bone pile. It was priceless!

 

[Fly 2006]

All that you describe is one of the reasons I am a vegetarian! Yes you are right when you question why the life of one animal should be more important than others but at least the animals bred for food are there for a reason and at the end of their lives they feed people, why anyone would just let their dogs breed with no thought of the outcome astounds me and to let two dogs fight over females and harm each other astounds me too! If you don't care about the dogs in shelters, what about the people that care about these dogs, that have to see them suffer daily and perfectly fit, happy and even tempered dogs PTS every day because of irresponsible breeding, I understand our countries are probably very different but I know that the Border Collie rescue I got my beautiful girl from break their hearts over the cruelty and hardship they see, the strays that have been beaten and abused that they work so hard to rehabilitate. These are the same species that help us on a daily basis, have you seen a dog aiding a blind or deaf person, a dog aiding a person with little mobility, the dogs that go to war with soldiers, our dogs are amazing creatures and in an ideal world each one would be cherished by someone....................... Pleeeeease, rethink your attitude towards breeding unwanted pups......... I know I've gone on a bit but hopefully anyone reading this will know it is just because I care deeply about the welfare of dogs.

 

[Cowgirl71]

All that you describe is one of the reasons I am a vegetarian! Yes you are right when you question why the life of one animal should be more important than others but at least the animals bred for food are there for a reason and at the end of their lives they feed people (But why do they have to be treated the way they are? How about grass, space, sunshine, the way it's supposed to be. The way they're treated now is just cruel. Absolutely cruel. I wouldn't wish their living conditions on my worst enemy.), why anyone would just let their dogs breed with no thought of the outcome astounds me (What do you mean "no thought"? Of course we felt bad about it, but we were not going to spay our dogs. What would of been the "responsible" thing to do?) and to let two dogs fight over females and harm each other astounds me too! (What were we supposed to do? The neighbor refused to tie her dog up, and there was no way we were going to tie up Big Guy, it would totally defeat the purpose of why we bought him. Besides, her dog was coming onto our property and bothering our dogs and our cows, so why should we have to tie our dog up? And we did take care of the problem as soon as we were able to. The neighbor and us had to discuss the proper solution. When we decided, we took care of it. We weren't able to shoot him right away because he was extremely wary of us and would take off running as soon as he saw us. We wanted to get a good shot so that he wouldn't wander off and die a long painful death. We also had to make sure that none of our own animals were around or behind him that could accidentally get hurt or killed. We did take care of the problem as fast as we could. You just don't understand what the situation was. And I do feal really bad about how Big Guy got beat up; but not Marley. That rascal just kept coming back for more, even after his jaw was broken.). If you don't care about the dogs in shelters (What do you mean, I do care! Every pet dog I've ever had was either from an animal shelter, or a stray that wandered onto our property so we took him in, or puppies that someone had dumped off at a stop sign. A total of six dogs. I've never bought a pet dog from a breeder or a puppy mill.), what about the people that care about these dogs, that have to see them suffer daily and perfectly fit, happy and even tempered dogs PTS every day because of irresponsible breeding, I understand our countries are probably very different but I know that the Border Collie rescue I got my beautiful girl from break their hearts over the cruelty and hardship they see, the strays that have been beaten and abused that they work so hard to rehabilitate. These are the same species that help us on a daily basis, have you seen a dog aiding a blind or deaf person, a dog aiding a person with little mobility, the dogs that go to war with soldiers, our dogs are amazing creatures and in an ideal world each one would be cherished by someone....................... Pleeeeease, rethink your attitude towards breeding unwanted pups......... (Again, I ask what the "responsible" thing was to do in the situation we had, without spaying our dogs. And I do care about animals. I'm an animal lover too.) I know I've gone on a bit but hopefully anyone reading this will know it is just because I care deeply about the welfare of dogs.

As far as our plans of breeding Great Pyrs... I don't know if you understand what a Livestock Guardian Dog is. They're fantastic dogs. Their instinct to guard and protect and stay with the goats is amazing to watch, it's just as amazing as watching a dog guide a blind or deaf person. However it is nearly impossible to train just any dog to guard and protect goats or sheep. Most of it is instinct, which the Pyrenees and several other breeds bred for the purpose have. Like I said earlier, if you have goats (or sheep), particularily babies in the springtime, you need some type of protection, or else the coyotes and mountain lions and other animals will kill and eat many of your goats. Some people get away with using a llama or something like that, but there's nothing that can beat two or more LGDs working together as a team. It's beautiful and amazing to watch. We are not planning to breed "pet" dogs. There are too many of those in need of homes as is. But Livestock Guardian Dogs are almost a different species. They have a purpose in life, to protect the lives of their goats or sheep. And I do believe that our dogs have a pretty good life. They have the freedom to go where ever they want, no itchy collars, never leashed or tied up, creeks and ponds to go in when they're hot in the summer, thick heavy winter fur in the winter, and a huge fresh pile of meat scraps nearly every week. Basically as nature intended (except for the meat scraps, nature expects them to hunt their own, LOL).

 

[res]

...Two months later Sheba had five mongrel puppies. .... two months later Sheba has a litter of eight puppies.

We did find homes for two of them. The rest were chasing the goats and actually fatally injured a baby while "playing" with it, so we put them down. This may sound harsh, but the animal shelter charges you $40 per dog to take them in, and then most of them just get put to sleep anyway. It's sad, but it's just the way it is.

So you are saying you "put down" (which I assume you mean shot) ELEVEN puppies???

Wow!

I have been around livestock and raised livestock my entire life. I have also owned LGD's, as well as worked closely in a veterinary capacity with others who use/raise LGD's. I have NEVER heard of someone handling matters in the way you have just described.

Yes, LGD's have a purpose - to protect livestock. But to let them breed willy-nilly and then casually dispose of the offspring is something you should be ashamed of. If you cannot control when and WHO breeds your females, then you need to be responsible and spay them. If you feel you *MUST* breed, then leave one female intact. That way you can lock her up when she is in heat to ensure she does or does not get bred. And also so no other male dogs have to die because of her.... Ridiculous. And to state that your dogs are "of very high quality and from registered stock" shows how naive you are regarding GOOD stock. Registration papers do not guarantee anything. Show me some certs for hips, eyes, elbows etc and some proof of longevity and workability and I would be much more impressed.

And yes, I have "disposed" of dogs that were on my property and harassing my animals. If I knew who owned them, the owners were warned first. But the second time I saw the dog on my property, I take matters into my own hands, and the problem is gone. I would never let it progress to the point of injuries as you describe.