Dog Warning Reminder

[centrarchid]

I never said that success can't be realized. You have your way, I have mine. I try to be realistic. Not all dogs will be good flock companions. Dogs are predators, chickens are prey. Some dogs just will never be able to be around livestock no matter how much you train. That is being realistic. My points were not to be used as training exercises. My points were that if you don't have the time it takes to try and succeed or, you don't want to lose animals in the process then, keep your animals separated, period. Not everyone needs a livestock guardian..so pushing training onto someone that isn't prepared or simply doesn't have the time is setting that person up for even more losses. I'd rather give 'horror' stories then provide advice that might end up losing someone their entire flock.

Both sides of every story needs to be told so that the OP can make an informed decision and not feel bad if they chose to keep their animals separated.

Having an untrained dog in proximity to a flock where two have potential to interact has a higher risk associated with it than efforts with a dog that has some level of training and owner has developed some level of competence in controlling dog. Even you have had lapses in your efforts to keep flock and untrained dog separated that would have been much less a problem if you had better control over your dog. That is a reality as well.

We are both clearly pushing in different directions. You do not have to realize the same level of training I do to protect flock, but some training is better than none. A limited amount of training can buy time until critters can be separated.

 

[steveholtam]

So you think that a dog that has never killed a chicken can't out of the blue decide to kill a chicken? Would that be the same as a dog that has never bitten a human until it has bitten a human? I highly doubt that leadwolf fabricated a story about a dog that decided to kill chickens three years into being near them. There are no absolutes when it comes to behavior, chicken, dog or human. People for no reason walk into public places and kill humans.

I respect your feelings on how dogs can be beneficial. But the fact is that dogs can also be threats, the intent of this thread. It is better to be safe then sorry.

edited by staff

 

[leadwolf1]

I have never had problems due to lack of training and, I've never experienced losses of livestock or any other animal to one of my dogs. All my dogs are obedience trained and obey very well. My akita and the chinchilla incident? That wasn't a lack of training on my part or the dogs. It was a lack of training on the part of my husband. He was new to dogs and didn't realize how quick they could be. The akita was still a pup and leave it was and still is something that he doesn't comprehend when a small animal is involved. None of my dogs bother my caged animals...not even sick chickens that I might have inside. They know that they are mine. Outside? That's a totally different story.

I would never condone no training. Every dog needs to know the basics. This thread was not concerning basic obedience. I would not trust any of my dogs with any small animal outside. They bring back rabbits, possums, etc. If it comes into their yard, it is toast. Do they listen to me? Yep. But, one has to keep in mind what kind of breed you are working with. I chose working dogs..they are bred to think for themselves....an altogether different animal then herding, sporting or any of the other groups. You can't expect to undo a thousand years of breeding...Some, yes, others, no.

I'm glad we can agree to disagree.

 

[centrarchid]

I have never had problems due to lack of training and, I've never experienced losses of livestock or any other animal to one of my dogs. All my dogs are obedience trained and obey very well. My akita and the chinchilla incident? That wasn't a lack of training on my part or the dogs. It was a lack of training on the part of my husband. He was new to dogs and didn't realize how quick they could be. The akita was still a pup and leave it was and still is something that he doesn't comprehend when a small animal is involved. None of my dogs bother my caged animals...not even sick chickens that I might have inside. They know that they are mine. Outside? That's a totally different story.

I would never condone no training. Every dog needs to know the basics. This thread was not concerning basic obedience. I would not trust any of my dogs with any small animal outside. They bring back rabbits, possums, etc. If it comes into their yard, it is toast. Do they listen to me? Yep. But, one has to keep in mind what kind of breed you are working with. I chose working dogs..they are bred to think for themselves....an altogether different animal then herding, sporting or any of the other groups. You can't expect to undo a thousand years of breeding...Some, yes, others, no.

I'm glad we can agree to disagree.

The thousands of years of breeding has involved dogs that are multipurpose. The business of bred for single purpose use is recent as in last couple hundred years or so. A few notable exceptions like sight hounds and the larger LGD breeds used for herding ruminants have been around longer but none can approach the longevity of the village dog. I STATE AGAIN NONE. Most of our extant domestic breeds can trace at least part of their ancestry to those village dogs that looked a bit like the Australian dingo. They are not derived directly from a wolf. Those animals guarded the village / homestead from strangers and predators. Livestock of all sorts where kept by many such human populations. Chickens, free-ranging I stress, were also present. Look on internet for pictures of village dogs and chickens or goats. You will often see dogs out with the other species. Or take yourself out to some third world country that approximates how dogs where kept for many thousands of years. The dogs in many instances would in our society be called strays or do not report to a specific owner yet all members in that community at some point or another invested in training those dogs not to molest the other species of interest to the people. In some instances those same dogs also aided with hunting but would come back and leave livestock alone. If a village can do it with dogs lacking a pedigree, then anyone can if they have an open mind.

 

[leadwolf1]

I give up. You are so very right...I bow to you. It's amazing after all the research I put into reading and knowing Akitas that I still have no clue.

Please, enjoy your victory. I have no more time for this...I have more research and training to do.

 

[ChickensRDinos]

Steve - I'm sad to hear about your hen. But, please do not be discouraged. I think you have a good attitude about the situation and are making efforts to succeed. That is what is important here. Chickens are prey animals with numerous predators. They live outside and are prone to a number of diseases and health problems and odd things. They are also animals with very small brains who can make bad choices. Just keep learning and growing and I believe that you and all your critters will do well.

My points were not to be used as training exercises. My points were that if you don't have the time it takes to try and succeed or, you don't want to lose animals in the process then, keep your animals separated, period. Not everyone needs a livestock guardian..so pushing training onto someone that isn't prepared or simply doesn't have the time is setting that person up for even more losses. I'd rather give 'horror' stories then provide advice that might end up losing someone their entire flock.

No. If you do not have the time it takes to try and succeed or you don't want to lose animals in the process then don't have them. Period. It is surprising to me that you would say you have 20 years of dog training and would say that.

I don't know you and am going to assume that you are lovely person with lovely well trained pets and happy life. I am really glad you participate in this forum as I think everyone's voice is important. This is not about attacking you or about winning or losing.

I think it is important not to promote the above idea because it sounds like you are saying that if you don't have time to train your dog then that's fine. It's not fine. Dog training is a part of dog care. Not everyone is capable of varsity level animal training - that is fine. But, if you aren't even willing to play on JV then don't come to the game.

Keeping animals separate with no training means that when (and it really is just a case of when) one of them gets out there will be loss. A combination of training and separation based on your own life, sure. But dog training needs to happen. I read so many stories on here about dogs and people say well I bought a shock collar and a fence - I give up and am giving the dog away. This makes me so sad.

I think that horror stories are important if they help and that your second story had the potential to be helpful had you given more information. Centra could have been less confrontational but think was trying to point out that without context your stories felt more harmful than helpful. The first was just an example of how NEVER to introduce two animals to one another. It has nothing to do with dog success or failure.

I think your second story, without enough information and context promotes the idea that dogs "just snap." As a pit bull rescuer who lives in a city where 200+ pits are euthanized A DAY, I want to take the time to publicly express my opinion that this is not true and not fair and has a far reaching negative impact.

So you think that a dog that has never killed a chicken can't out of the blue decide to kill a chicken? Would that be the same as a dog that has never bitten a human until it has bitten a human? I highly doubt that leadwolf fabricated a story about a dog that decided to kill chickens three years into being near them. There are no absolutes when it comes to behavior, chicken, dog or human. People for no reason walk into public places and kill humans.

I respect your feelings on how dogs can be beneficial. But the fact is that dogs can also be threats, the intent of this thread. It is better to be safe then sorry.

No. Dog do not just decide one day to kill things. They do not just decide to bite people. They do not just snap. They are not wild killing machines. There are dogs that have had horrible things happen to them at the hands of people and they will never be ok, but they are the exception, not the rule.

They are complex, intelligent animals that respond to their environment and sometimes respond negatively. This part of the reason why if you do not have "time" to train a dog then please do not own one. They have a prey drive but they are also domesticated animals.

I do not think that the story was fabricated, I just think it needs much more information to be useful. Dogs make mistakes. WHY the dog killed the chicken is much more important than the fact that it did. And, I guarantee you that there is a why.

If you have animals, expect loss. All different possible kinds of loss. I personally have made mistakes that have lead to a dead chicken. There are no absolutes but there are ways to help be successful.

 

[seminolewind]

I give up. You are so very right...I bow to you. It's amazing after all the research I put into reading and knowing Akitas that I still have no clue.

Please, enjoy your victory. I have no more time for this...I have more research and training to do.

Leadwolf, I have a dog that, with all the training in the world, will go after a chicken. I have alot of stories about dogs and chickens but I think I'll keep them to myself. I don't trust any animal 100%.

 

[steveholtam]

Well said ChickensRDinos. You made many good points.

We all love dogs and chickens I guess! Now all we need is a bug expert to take up their cause and this will be a perfect thread. lol

 

[Judy]

A reminder of a couple of our rules:


Quote: This thread has been cleaned of rude and attacking remarks.

It is possible to express a differing opinion without attacking the person who expressed another one. If someone is rude or attacking, please report them rather than responding.

 

[seminolewind]

I see lots of posts about dogs and chickens with people having various tips about how to get the chickens and dogs happy together. From introducing the dogs to the chicks early on and lots of supervised exposure and the like. Well yesterday evening my 10 year old beagle, whom has been around my three chickens, from 6 days old, and for the past two months killed my favorite hen.

I have built a really good coop and run, and that is where the chickens live most of the time. This coop/run combo is very robust, and they are very safe inside of it. But I also have a nice little garden with a smaller fenced area to keep my dog out. Since the hens are now about 2 months old, and much bigger, I figured they would be a bit safer out of the run and into the garden. They really love the garden since it is full of bugs, weeds, plants and the like. Much more natural then the run which is just dirt.

Well yesterday I had the three ladies out in the evening as normal. I heard a loud chicken commotion and ran outside to see my dog chasing one of them down the side of the house, and another running across the yard. I quickly grabbed these two up and put them back into the safety of the run. I went looking for the third, hoping she was hiding in the tomatoes or something.

Sadly, she was in the garden with what appeared to be a broken neck. It was very sad. My dog had pushed her way under a 4 foot length of pressure treated 4x4 that had the chicken wire attached to it. From the first sounds of commotion to when I got to the garden was about 30 seconds.

So just as a warning, please be very careful of your dog(s). My dog showed nothing but simple curiosity about the chickens. She always seemed more interested in what I was feeding them then the chickens themselves. She is an old, fat, half blind beagle that looks about as harmless as any dog can. In just a few seconds though, she was able to kill a chicken. If I had taken another 60 seconds I am sure I would have no chickens left. I was really mad at the dog at first, but I know it is not her fault. Dogs kill chickens. I thought I was lucky and just had one of those dogs that I read about her that "protect" the chickens. Nope...

Take care and enjoy your chickens! Just be very aware of the many threats that exist for these poor stupid birds we enjoy so much.

Steve

Thanks, Steve. Just goes to show how the most careful people can have something happen. Even my daughter would let her canary out while her Staffordshire Terrier was present. "Oh, he won't hurt the canary". I used to cringe and leave the room.

It never hurts to reiterate the risks involved with introducing a dog to tasty chickens.

Or vice-versa. I had a roo that was constantly flying over a fence to "kill" the dog. That didn't end too well despite our being present whenever the dogs were out.