well said tgrlily. I agree with you.... thanks.
Dominique Thread!
- Thread starter Dixiedoodle
- Start date
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This is second attempt at replying. Dog turned off computer stopping first.
Eggs: First indicator of barred Plymouth rock influence on some hatchery American Dominiques is the relatively dark eggs. American Dominiques I have from reputable breeders produce eggs that are consistently much lighter brown and often smaller when compared to those of hatchery stock hens of similar size and age. Differences exist between different hatcheries stocks also exist in this regard. EDIT: PRIVETT (not Ideal) Hatchery Hens produce larger eggs than Cackle Hatchery hens.
Feathers: All American Dominiques I have seen appear to have at least one locus that with an allele that promotes slower feathering. The locus / loci appear to be autosomal (not occurring on sex chromosomes) thus affecting both sexes equally. This locus / loci is what gives the noodle look to sicle feathers on tail and makes for somewhat crisper bars on all feathers. Without the slow feathering gene the birds would have the smoky look to their barring pattern. Some hatchery strains (derived from Ideal Hatchery) have the slow feathering gene on the Z-chromosome (male coding) making for further slowing of feathering which is even stronger in males enabling feather sexing as hatchlings. As adults these birds tend to run darker with stronger contrast between bars approaching that seen in barred rocks. Sometimes the ring pattern also exhibited in such birds.
In most instances, barred rock appears to have been the added blood to promote better egg production, greater ease of sexing and sometimes a more aesthetically pleasing bird for show.
Some show folks reputable breeders have also been known to incorporate other breeds as well into their breeding populations. One party keeping ancestors of Voter line used game(s) carrying recessive white. Still pops up once in a while in birds I have. Another very popular American Dominique line also appears to have barred rock in its background promoting a larger (coarser) appearance than most lines.
American Dominiques have gone through multiple genetic bottle-necks greatly reducing genetic variation. Inclusion of other breeds from time to time needed to offset affects of inbreeding and too few breeding lines. Sometimes inclusion of other breeds in woodpile needed and not always bad. So long as so few people are involved with so few dominiques, loss of genetic variation through too few and too small "pure" bloodlines can be just as bad as adding new blood in a willy-nilly fashion.
This is second attempt at replying. Dog turned off computer stopping first.
Eggs: First indicator of barred Plymouth rock influence on some hatchery American Dominiques is the relatively dark eggs. American Dominiques I have from reputable breeders produce eggs that are consistently much lighter brown and often smaller when compared to those of hatchery stock hens of similar size and age. Differences exist between different hatcheries stocks also exist in this regard. EDIT: PRIVETT (not Ideal) Hatchery Hens produce larger eggs than Cackle Hatchery hens.
Feathers: All American Dominiques I have seen appear to have at least one locus that with an allele that promotes slower feathering. The locus / loci appear to be autosomal (not occurring on sex chromosomes) thus affecting both sexes equally. This locus / loci is what gives the noodle look to sicle feathers on tail and makes for somewhat crisper bars on all feathers. Without the slow feathering gene the birds would have the smoky look to their barring pattern. Some hatchery strains (derived from Ideal Hatchery) have the slow feathering gene on the Z-chromosome (male coding) making for further slowing of feathering which is even stronger in males enabling feather sexing as hatchlings. As adults these birds tend to run darker with stronger contrast between bars approaching that seen in barred rocks. Sometimes the ring pattern also exhibited in such birds.
In most instances, barred rock appears to have been the added blood to promote better egg production, greater ease of sexing and sometimes a more aesthetically pleasing bird for show.
Some show folks reputable breeders have also been known to incorporate other breeds as well into their breeding populations. One party keeping ancestors of Voter line used game(s) carrying recessive white. Still pops up once in a while in birds I have. Another very popular American Dominique line also appears to have barred rock in its background promoting a larger (coarser) appearance than most lines.
American Dominiques have gone through multiple genetic bottle-necks greatly reducing genetic variation. Inclusion of other breeds from time to time needed to offset affects of inbreeding and too few breeding lines. Sometimes inclusion of other breeds in woodpile needed and not always bad. So long as so few people are involved with so few dominiques, loss of genetic variation through too few and too small "pure" bloodlines can be just as bad as adding new blood in a willy-nilly fashion.
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The fact remains that there are very very few "pure" breeds of chicken, including Dominiques. Even for those that can trace their flocks back to the 1800s cannot say what went into those chickens before folks started keeping written records. The Dominique was developed during a time when people were more concerned with putting away enough food for winter and keeping out the snow and disease than they were with what their chickens looked like. That's what makes this breed what we love! They are a true utilitarian breed that bred itself into a beautiful, regal animal that should resist disease, forage well, be moderately broody, avoid predators and roosters that protect their hens without killing every farm kid looking for eggs.
SO. Yes, hatcheries use barred rocks (and other breeds!). Is there any PROOF? Well, no. As far as I know, none of us are several hundred years old to say exactly that 100% of the Dominiques back in the heyday laid x shade of eggs in x number and x size or that they had bars x wide and x shade. What we have are written records and some photos of a VERY SMALL percentage of the breed's representatives.
We all like to talk about how this breed shouldn't be tainted with other breeds, and it shouldn't! Unless you are a MASTER breeder please don't intentionally bring in an outside breed, because it takes many many generations to go back. HOWEVER the hatcheries aren't necessarily master breeders, but they've done the same thing. So where does that leave us? It means that those that buy from hatcheries have to do the years and years of culling to get back to the standard.
The genes are there. You probably will have to bring in outside blood to improve some strains of Dominiques - they're just too far gone. However, nitpicking about what breeds we guess have been put into the Dominique in recent years won't do us any good. Breed to the standard, do the best you can, enjoy your birds and better the breed.
SO. Yes, hatcheries use barred rocks (and other breeds!). Is there any PROOF? Well, no. As far as I know, none of us are several hundred years old to say exactly that 100% of the Dominiques back in the heyday laid x shade of eggs in x number and x size or that they had bars x wide and x shade. What we have are written records and some photos of a VERY SMALL percentage of the breed's representatives.
We all like to talk about how this breed shouldn't be tainted with other breeds, and it shouldn't! Unless you are a MASTER breeder please don't intentionally bring in an outside breed, because it takes many many generations to go back. HOWEVER the hatcheries aren't necessarily master breeders, but they've done the same thing. So where does that leave us? It means that those that buy from hatcheries have to do the years and years of culling to get back to the standard.
The genes are there. You probably will have to bring in outside blood to improve some strains of Dominiques - they're just too far gone. However, nitpicking about what breeds we guess have been put into the Dominique in recent years won't do us any good. Breed to the standard, do the best you can, enjoy your birds and better the breed.
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I know this isn't the Dorking thread, but the same applies to the Dorking. There are so few lines left that new blood is desperately needed, but should not be done haphazardly. The reason I got Dominiques was to cross with Dorkings in an attempt to bring back the Cuckoo variety, which has become virtually non-existent. There is some historical reference to back this cross. In the meantime, I'm growing out a beautiful young flock of Dominiques.
I know this isn't the Dorking thread, but the same applies to the Dorking. There are so few lines left that new blood is desperately needed, but should not be done haphazardly. The reason I got Dominiques was to cross with Dorkings in an attempt to bring back the Cuckoo variety, which has become virtually non-existent. There is some historical reference to back this cross. In the meantime, I'm growing out a beautiful young flock of Dominiques.
What is a MASTER breeder? Does it involve an advanced degree in breeding and genetics or is it bestowed based on years involved with selection efforts?
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I disagree with first sentence to the extreme. Does not hold up with wild populations so will not hold with domestic populations.
Breeding to standard alone will be a slow painful death for breed. This a situation where a little variation is good and breeding under low input rearing conditions with hens brooding and free range foraging can promote genes typical of breed that are just as important as breeding for color and type.
Research needed to best approximate breeds, genetics used to form American Dominique that performed when term "American Dominique" put to the breed we are concerned with.
It is my opinion we need less barred Plymouth rock / black Java and more gracile free ranging blood in the American Dominique to better "approximate" the breed we think we have and to distinguish it further from the coarser and higher maintenance barred Plymouth rock.
I disagree with first sentence to the extreme. Does not hold up with wild populations so will not hold with domestic populations.
Breeding to standard alone will be a slow painful death for breed. This a situation where a little variation is good and breeding under low input rearing conditions with hens brooding and free range foraging can promote genes typical of breed that are just as important as breeding for color and type.
Research needed to best approximate breeds, genetics used to form American Dominique that performed when term "American Dominique" put to the breed we are concerned with.
It is my opinion we need less barred Plymouth rock / black Java and more gracile free ranging blood in the American Dominique to better "approximate" the breed we think we have and to distinguish it further from the coarser and higher maintenance barred Plymouth rock.
- Jan 14, 2008
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For those interested in Dominiques with a 50 year pedigree I have more eggs up for auction. This may be the last for this year as I'm done with hatching & am anxious to break up my breeding pens.
As to the recent discussion here my opinion would be if it's not bred to a standard how can it be said to be any breed in particular? If I decide to call a red chicken a Dominique is it a Dominique or does there need to be some broad agreement on what constitutes a Dominique?
If there are Missouri Dominiques maybe mine should be called NY Dominiques even though they do conform to the APA Standard. I call my Reds NY Reds to annoy some poultry breeding friends from Rhode Island.
As to the recent discussion here my opinion would be if it's not bred to a standard how can it be said to be any breed in particular? If I decide to call a red chicken a Dominique is it a Dominique or does there need to be some broad agreement on what constitutes a Dominique?
If there are Missouri Dominiques maybe mine should be called NY Dominiques even though they do conform to the APA Standard. I call my Reds NY Reds to annoy some poultry breeding friends from Rhode Island.
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SOP by itself is hollow or more susceptable to forgery. We all seem interested in the real thing. To give more rigor to how American Dominique is defined I suggest the following.
1) Parents, at least most are recognized as being American Dominique - NYRED promotes this in his line with the 50 year pedigree.
It is possible to take birds not derived from American Dominique stock and using the Standard Of Perfection as a guide to develope a line that is a dead ringer for an American Dominique. Could still be distiguished using molecular genetic techniques.
2) You must look like an American Dominique - Even if a you start with NYREDS best in the world American Dominiques, you could intentionally or otherwise create a critter that satifies consideration 1 yet looks nothing like an American Dominique. This is only area SOP is strong.
3) Do you perform like an American Dominique. This is one I see not being stressed enough and appears most difficult to uphold as WallTenters indicated in post # 753. It is still important. Using rearing conditions to select for performance can be a method that reduces change in characteristics of breed that are not always detectable by the judges hand. Examples of what a judge has a difficult time determining include: 1) how long does it take you to reach market size, 2) What quality of feed is required for you to reach market size in the time typical for an American Dominique, 3) can you brood your own offspring but still lay a good number of eggs for a long productive lifetime, and 4) can you produce without anti-biotic or de-wormer applications? And many more. Failure to respond to this will result in some mighty pretty birds that do not perform well, sometimes even when isolated from all stressors like poor nutrition, enclement weather and disease. The livestock conservation groups are strong proponents of this.
SOP by itself is hollow or more susceptable to forgery. We all seem interested in the real thing. To give more rigor to how American Dominique is defined I suggest the following.
1) Parents, at least most are recognized as being American Dominique - NYRED promotes this in his line with the 50 year pedigree.
It is possible to take birds not derived from American Dominique stock and using the Standard Of Perfection as a guide to develope a line that is a dead ringer for an American Dominique. Could still be distiguished using molecular genetic techniques.
2) You must look like an American Dominique - Even if a you start with NYREDS best in the world American Dominiques, you could intentionally or otherwise create a critter that satifies consideration 1 yet looks nothing like an American Dominique. This is only area SOP is strong.
3) Do you perform like an American Dominique. This is one I see not being stressed enough and appears most difficult to uphold as WallTenters indicated in post # 753. It is still important. Using rearing conditions to select for performance can be a method that reduces change in characteristics of breed that are not always detectable by the judges hand. Examples of what a judge has a difficult time determining include: 1) how long does it take you to reach market size, 2) What quality of feed is required for you to reach market size in the time typical for an American Dominique, 3) can you brood your own offspring but still lay a good number of eggs for a long productive lifetime, and 4) can you produce without anti-biotic or de-wormer applications? And many more. Failure to respond to this will result in some mighty pretty birds that do not perform well, sometimes even when isolated from all stressors like poor nutrition, enclement weather and disease. The livestock conservation groups are strong proponents of this.
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Quote:
SOP by itself is hollow or more susceptable to forgery. We all seem interested in the real thing. To give more rigor to how American Dominique is defined I suggest the following.
1) Parents, at least most are recognized as being American Dominique - NYRED promotes this in his line with the 50 year pedigree.
It is possible to take birds not derived from American Dominique stock and using the Standard Of Perfection as a guide to develope a line that is a dead ringer for an American Dominique. Could still be distiguished using molecular genetic techniques.
2) You must look like an American Dominique - Even if a you start with NYREDS best in the world American Dominiques, you could intentionally or otherwise create a critter that satifies consideration 1 yet looks nothing like an American Dominique. This is only area SOP is strong.
3) Do you perform like an American Dominique. This is one I see not being stressed enough and appears most difficult to uphold as WallTenters indicated in post # 753. It is still important. Using rearing conditions to select for performance can be a method that reduces change in characteristics of breed that are not always detectable by the judges hand. Examples of what a judge has a difficult time determining include: 1) how long does it take you to reach market size, 2) What quality of feed is required for you to reach market size in the time typical for an American Dominique, 3) can you brood your own offspring but still lay a good number of eggs for a long productive lifetime, and 4) can you produce without anti-biotic or de-wormer applications? And many more. Failure to respond to this will result in some mighty pretty birds that do not perform well, sometimes even when isolated from all stressors like poor nutrition, enclement weather and disease. The livestock conservation groups are strong proponents of this.
There is no reason a breeder can't do both -- breed for performance as well as the SOP. IS there?
I think I'll start calling mine NY Dominiques too!
I'd like to post pics for evaluation -- but this is a tough crowd!
SOP by itself is hollow or more susceptable to forgery. We all seem interested in the real thing. To give more rigor to how American Dominique is defined I suggest the following.
1) Parents, at least most are recognized as being American Dominique - NYRED promotes this in his line with the 50 year pedigree.
It is possible to take birds not derived from American Dominique stock and using the Standard Of Perfection as a guide to develope a line that is a dead ringer for an American Dominique. Could still be distiguished using molecular genetic techniques.
2) You must look like an American Dominique - Even if a you start with NYREDS best in the world American Dominiques, you could intentionally or otherwise create a critter that satifies consideration 1 yet looks nothing like an American Dominique. This is only area SOP is strong.
3) Do you perform like an American Dominique. This is one I see not being stressed enough and appears most difficult to uphold as WallTenters indicated in post # 753. It is still important. Using rearing conditions to select for performance can be a method that reduces change in characteristics of breed that are not always detectable by the judges hand. Examples of what a judge has a difficult time determining include: 1) how long does it take you to reach market size, 2) What quality of feed is required for you to reach market size in the time typical for an American Dominique, 3) can you brood your own offspring but still lay a good number of eggs for a long productive lifetime, and 4) can you produce without anti-biotic or de-wormer applications? And many more. Failure to respond to this will result in some mighty pretty birds that do not perform well, sometimes even when isolated from all stressors like poor nutrition, enclement weather and disease. The livestock conservation groups are strong proponents of this.
There is no reason a breeder can't do both -- breed for performance as well as the SOP. IS there?
I think I'll start calling mine NY Dominiques too!
I think both can be done but makes for more work. Some conflict is to be expected between looks and performance. Conflict might be a function of locality. If enough parties involved with American Dominiques in a particular region trade stock primarily among themselves, then landraces may develop. Then terms such as New York or Missouri Dominique may actually become relavant as lineages are today. Lineages will prevail so long as the gene pool is small and exchange rates between lineages so slow as to allow the lineages to differentiate noticeably over time. The present reality has crossing of strains being considered undesireable since crosses (interlineage) may not be considered of quality under SOP. This sets stage where a single lineage, especially if greatly valued for show / trade can come to dominate or even replace balance of the American Dominique breed. That can cause loss of genes not occuring in the dominant lineage which can be bad. Losses can also be incurred by production flocks being allowed to die out.
We are not that tough, just very opinionated.
We are not that tough, just very opinionated.
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