d'Uccle color genetics

[Chris09]

Quote:
If you breed Lavender to mille fluer you should get all Lavender chicks that each carry one gene for mottled, one gene for lav...

Chris

 

[lilcrow]

Quote:
Ahhh, not quite. Have you ever used Henk's color calculator? http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html
This is a wonderful tool that you can use to calculate your color breedings and get an idea of what you may get before you breed. It can also boggle your mind a bit, but mostly it's wonderful. The breeding you just theorized produced in the second generation, almost limitless possibilities if you repeat the breedings often enough, this would include Porcelain and Columbian of all things.
Oh and I know I'm not Turtlefeathers, so you can completely ignore me if you want and I'll understand.

 

[yotetrapper]

Quote:
If you breed Lavender to mille fluer you should get all Lavender chicks that each carry one gene for mottled, one gene for lav...

Chris

That REALLY lost me. Mille Fleur doesn't have a lavender gene does it? So, you'd get one dose of Lav from the Lavender, but none of the Mille Fleur, but shouldn't get ANY lavender appearing chicks, right?

 

[yotetrapper]

Quote:
Ahhh, not quite. Have you ever used Henk's color calculator? http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html
This is a wonderful tool that you can use to calculate your color breedings and get an idea of what you may get before you breed. It can also boggle your mind a bit, but mostly it's wonderful. The breeding you just theorized produced in the second generation, almost limitless possibilities if you repeat the breedings often enough, this would include Porcelain and Columbian of all things.
Oh and I know I'm not Turtlefeathers, so you can completely ignore me if you want and I'll understand.

I've looked at the chicken calculator before, and again just now, and have not the faintest clue how to use it.

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
If you breed Lavender to mille fluer you should get all Lavender chicks that each carry one gene for mottled, one gene for lav...

Chris

That REALLY lost me. Mille Fleur doesn't have a lavender gene does it? So, you'd get one dose of Lav from the Lavender, but none of the Mille Fleur, but shouldn't get ANY lavender appearing chicks, right?

I'm sorry I got side tracked there..
lavender , to a mille fluer would get you black.

Chris

 

[yotetrapper]

Ok, I just played more with the chicken calculator, and think I kinda got it, at least, I got the basic crosses to come out right lol.

But man, it gets confusing real quick. It shows lav to mille fleur, as being all black, but when you breed those two split black offsprings, the results it gives you includes 20 some genotypes, and 12 phenotypes!

 

[TurtleFeathers]

Quote:
Lavender x mille fleur = 100% black chicks and they ALL would be split to pied/mottled AND lavender.

Breed those offspring TOGETHER and you would get the following:

(figuring in my head, so bear with me)

black split to lavender, black split to pied/mottled, black split to both pied/mottled AND lavender, and black split to nothing at all
black mottled split to lavender, black mottled split to nothing at all
lavender split to pied/mottled, lavender split to nothing at all
lavender mottled, lavender mottled split to nothing at all
mille fleur split to lavender, mille fleur split to nothing at all
porcelain (split to nothing at all)

I THINK. Will have to check my figuring on Henk's calculator for percentages.

NOTE:

1. Percentages are based on 100 chicks. I don't know 'bout y'all, but I prefer to think of these as simply "possibilities", and not percentages, because A) I don't breed/incubate/raise 100 chicks at one sitting, and B) because I get confused with all the letters, alleles and loci.

2. Splits will look just like visuals - for example, a mille fleur split to lavender will look EXACTLY like a mille fleur that isn't split to anything. You will have to breed a bird that is split to a recessive gene either to a VISUAL of that color or to another split, in order to get chicks of that color. When you get chicks of that color, you know the parent is split. (This is the difference between phenotype and genotype - phenotype is what the bird LOOKS LIKE, and genotype is what it is genetically, including what it is visually and what it is split to)

3. If the parent is visual for a recessive gene and is NOT bred to a split or another visual, the chick is automatically split. For example, a visual lavender bred to a black (not split to anything) will GUARANTEE that the chicks are 100% split to lavender. Or a mille fleur bred to a non pied/mottled color (such as lavender, black, blue, etc...) will GUARANTEE the chicks are 100% split to pied/mottled.

Personally, if I were creating porcelain, I would breed a mille fleur to a lavender, and breed the resulting chicks back to their parents.

Hope this helps!

 

[TurtleFeathers]

Quote:
You can't get blue MF from breeding a pure lavender to a pure porcelain (which is lavender MF). At least one of the parents has to be an andalusian blue in order for andalusian blue to show up in the chicks.

Keep in mind that andalusian blue (as opposed to "self" blue, which is another name for lavender) is a dominant gene. It is a diluter, just like lavender is, but andalusian blue is ALWAYS visual, never carried or split (whereas lavender is recessive and can be either visual or split). With andalusian blue, either the bird has it (in which case, you'd SEE it) or it doesn't. One andalusian blue gene gives a blue bird with a "laced" affect, and two andalusian blue genes give splash (remember, one gene is inherited from each parent). Andalusian blue only affects BLACK - so if you add andalusian blue to a MF, the only the black spots would be blue - the rest of the bird would remain unchanged. Add two andalusian blue genes to MF, and the black spots will become splash - which some people refer to as "Gold Neck" (thats one type of Gold Neck - the other involves white instead of andalusian blue, but I won't get into that here).

Since the "lavender" hen came from a group that included a solid black chick (explained in a previous post), I'd say that one of the original breeding group was NOT pure lavender or pure porcelain - it in fact was an andalusian blue. And that means that this "lavender" hen isn't pure lavender either if she's producing blue chicks with a porcelain rooster. She got the andalusian blue gene from one of her parents - she may also be expressing lavender at the same time, which will make her appearance alittle "off", but to the untrained eye, it might be hard to recognize.

Quote:
There is no such thing as a "triple" dose of lavender, or any other gene. A chick can only inherit one gene of a single color (or pattern) from each parent - and since there is only TWO parents of every chick, they each contribute one gene to each chick. A visual lavender has two lavender genes (one from each parent), whereas a split only has one (one from one parent, because the other parent didn't/couldn't contribute any). A porcelain has two lavender genes AND two pied/mottled genes - where as a MF has two pied/mottled genes and thats it.

Clear as mud, right? in a lay person's view kinda way... I'll let y'all stew on that for a while and I'll check back in this evening, ok? LOL!!!

 

[wegotchickens]

AAAaaaaahhhhh. Ok, My head really hurts LOL. But I think I understand a bit more than I did.

Here are my Lavender. Does one look blue?

The lav roo with the lav hens throw ALL lav chicks.

I do believe the other roo is the issue for genetic frailty in my experiment birds, as he is a poor porcelain to begin with. I just wanted him for the predominance of straw (butterscotch breeding).

OK. I have lovely MF, good Lav, and a Gold splash hen. I think the MF roo is going to get his wish, and breed with ALL the ladies later this year. Then I will see what
MF x lv/lv= ?
MF x gold splash = ?

And I will keep Dexter for a while longer and try the Porce x Lav thing again and see what happens.

 

[TurtleFeathers]

Quote:
What is gold splash and what is butterscotch? Genetically, I mean? This is where hobby names get confusing to me.

The picture with the rooster and hens APPEAR to be lavender, IMO. But again, to the untrained eye, a mix of lavender and andalusian blue MAY not be easily recognizable. And neither will it be in a photo on a message board, I don't think.

The single rooster in the pic looks too dark to be a "pure" porcelain, IMO. He may be a mix of andalusian blue and porcelain? That may be where the one hen came from that produces the blue MF chicks? Thats just a guess tho, so don't hold me to it.

If you have any blacks or black mottled hens, I would breed the single rooster in that pic to them - if you get andalusian blue chicks (they will be mottled) then you'll know he's the one causing the trouble.