EE/Ameraucana frustration

[rebelcowboysnb]

Quote:
Yep an hundreds of home owners associations have rules that your house has to be X color an only pets allowed are dogs. I'm sure that applies to everyone outside them to.
Some groups ban eating red meat. Others ban work on Sunday. An some ban electricity in the home. I'm sure you are going to follow those rules too cause they "have decided."

You can argue it all day long but the fact is that the "standard" only applies to people showing in those clubs. They can write all the rules they want an write all the books they want but they are a minority an have no power over the real world.

I have yet to see another breed of animal where there is so much of a stink about who uses the breed name. Even though all of them have people breeding animals that don't meet the "standard" only this one spends so much time causing a stink about it then blaming it on everyone else.

Think about it... When was then last time you saw someone have a hissy cause someone called there big fat round headed seal point farm cat a Siamese.

I ask people all the time what there dog is an they tell me its a lab or a boxer or whatever. I breed dogs an had to ask. Thre is no way they are "to standard" but no one is making a big deal about it.

Only this breed has such a stink around it.

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

Quote:

I have yet to see another breed of animal where there is so much of a stink about who uses the breed name. Even though all of them have people breeding animals that don't meet the "standard" only this one spends so much time causing a stink about it then blaming it on everyone else.

Think about it... When was then last time you saw someone have a hissy cause someone called there big fat round headed seal point farm cat a Siamese.

I ask people all the time what there dog is an they tell me its a lab or a boxer or whatever. I breed dogs an had to ask. Thre is no way they are "to standard" but no one is making a big deal about it.

Only this breed has such a stink around it.

When someone calls their barn cat a siamese I can look at it and know whether it is a siamese or not. If it is just a random cat, in my head I say "That is SO not a pure siamese." and just think the speaker is an idiot. Perhaps though their cat does look like a siamese, just not a show cat. It doesn't matter to me as long as I am not buying a kitten that I intend to breed as a siamese cat.

With ameraucanas MOST people don't know just by looking. If it has cheeks they automatically assume that it is an ameraucana. This has been perpetuated by the hatcheries by calling their EEs "americanas" and other such terms. When you are breeding REAL ameraucanas, this is frustrating and it cheapens the work you are doing. It also makes it harder to sell them for what they are truly worth. If Joe Schmo is selling his easter egger mutts as ameraucanas for $5 each, it makes it harder to justify selling mine for $20 each.
With the ABC automatically saying that any chicken that doesn't match the color standard becomes an easter egger, it does make it harder to defend the purity issue. It also kind of makes us look silly. If ameraucanas were treated like all the other breeds of chickens it would make a lot more sense. A chick from two pure ameraucana parents IS an ameraucana, whether it is colored up to standard or not. A chick from one ameraucana parent and something else IS an EE, not matter how it is colored. It is a lot simpler in the end. Approved colors are still the only ones eligible to show.

If the ameraucana standard is solely to be based on color and form and not heritage, then I am hatching out some EEs that would pass. I have had gorgeous blue EEs come out of a barred rock mother and blue ameraucana father. To just look at them you would swear that they were blue ameraucana hens. Now, I know that there is no way they are a pure ameraucana since they hatched out of brown eggs. But they meet the physical standards and color patterns for pure ameraucanas. Does this make them ameraucanas? I think not because the parentage is not there. Conversely a wheaten AM crossed with a black AM still makes and AM, just not a very good one.

Does this same battle reign with the marans folks? What do they call off colored marans?

 

[BarnGoddess01]

When someone calls their barn cat a siamese I can look at it and know whether it is a siamese or not. If it is just a random cat, in my head I say "That is SO not a pure siamese." and just think the speaker is an idiot. Perhaps though their cat does look like a siamese, just not a show cat. It doesn't matter to me as long as I am not buying a kitten that I intend to breed as a siamese cat.

With ameraucanas MOST people don't know just by looking. If it has cheeks they automatically assume that it is an ameraucana. This has been perpetuated by the hatcheries by calling their EEs "americanas" and other such terms. When you are breeding REAL ameraucanas, this is frustrating and it cheapens the work you are doing. It also makes it harder to sell them for what they are truly worth. If Joe Schmo is selling his easter egger mutts as ameraucanas for $5 each, it makes it harder to justify selling mine for $20 each.
With the ABC automatically saying that any chicken that doesn't match the color standard becomes an easter egger, it does make it harder to defend the purity issue. It also kind of makes us look silly. If ameraucanas were treated like all the other breeds of chickens it would make a lot more sense. A chick from two pure ameraucana parents IS an ameraucana, whether it is colored up to standard or not. A chick from one ameraucana parent and something else IS an EE, not matter how it is colored. It is a lot simpler in the end. Approved colors are still the only ones eligible to show.

If the ameraucana standard is solely to be based on color and form and not heritage, then I am hatching out some EEs that would pass. I have had gorgeous blue EEs come out of a barred rock mother and blue ameraucana father. To just look at them you would swear that they were blue ameraucana hens. Now, I know that there is no way they are a pure ameraucana since they hatched out of brown eggs. But they meet the physical standards and color patterns for pure ameraucanas. Does this make them ameraucanas? I think not because the parentage is not there. Conversely a wheaten AM crossed with a black AM still makes and AM, just not a very good one.

Does this same battle reign with the marans folks? What do they call off colored marans?

Marans folks squawk most often about egg colour. They aren't Marans if the egg colour is too light. They also get pretty worked up about combs and leg feathers. But leg feathers are a controversial one because some countries call for feathered shanks and some don't. There are only 2 varieties of Marans approved so far in the US and they aren't even in the book yet so we haven't really gotten to the serious arguing although enough of it does go on.

There is more to an Ameraucana than just colour. Your beautiful blue EE that looks like an Ameraucana with the BR mom and Blue Ameraucana dad won't breed true which eliminates it as a true Ameraucana.

And just for the record, cat folks get just as worked up about misrepresentation as the dog folks, the horse folks, AND the chicken folks! It isn't just about the money breeders want to charge either. Many are passionate about maintaining the described appearance of the breed in question which very often doesn't happen in backyard situations. High end breeders charge a lot of money for their stock because it costs a lot of money to do it right.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

PS. It's easier to resolve disputes with cats and dogs and horses because the animals are registered so paperwork can be expected. Anybody can claim to be working with "purebred" poultry. Very hard to prove it on the spot.

 

[runsw/scissors]

Part of this hassle is the insistence that colour negates parentage. Which seems frankly bizarre! The second paragraph of citygirlinthecountry says in part, "...With the ABC automatically saying that any chicken that doesn't match the color standard becomes an easter egger, it does make it harder to defend the purity issue. It also kind of makes us look silly. If ameraucanas were treated like all the other breeds of chickens it would make a lot more sense. A chick from two pure ameraucana parents IS an ameraucana, whether it is colored up to standard or not. A chick from one ameraucana parent and something else IS an EE, not matter how it is colored. It is a lot simpler in the end. Approved colors are still the only ones eligible to show. "


Something that makes perfect sense! From what you're saying barn goddess, parentage doesn't matter what matters is colour and prepotent genetics. That seems a little odd to me.

Having said all that, I'm going to bow out of this conversation; we seem to be disagreeing and I don't know to be any clearer.

 

[chickmanna]

Saying that the earth is flat, writing it down, having other people read it and agree doesn't make it true.

As a chicken newbie, with no dog in this fight at all, it seems to me that this whole issue comes up because the Ameraucana breeders (in general, no one specific, please), IMHO, have taken their standard a step farther than needed - to the point that it defies accepted genetic principles. Their guidelines not only contain an SOP for purposes of judging the breed (by appearance and egg color) but also a SO..... NOT which tries to define things outside the realm of a SOP.

I get that it's in response to hatcheries misrepresenting crossbreed chickens as Ameraucana, but that doesn't make it true. The issue with hatcheries misrepresenting mixed breed chickens as Ameraucanas is one thing, and should be addressed. But it defies logic to say that Ameraucana + Ameraucana equals anything but Ameraucana.

Is a lavender Orpington not an Orpington? And even if you believe that - does it belong in the Orpington SOP?

What runsw/scissors said.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Saying that the earth is flat, writing it down, having other people read it and agree doesn't make it true.

Not the same thing at all. They are not denying that your bird is a chicken. They are simply not allowing your bird admission to their breed. Their breed, their club, their rules.

 

[chickmanna]

The whole point is that logically they can't deny that the chicken is an Ameraucana, all they can decide is that it doesn't meet the show standard.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

At the end of the day, you can call your bird whatever you want. However, you might get some flack if you pick a name that is meaningful to other folks and your bird doesn't fit their picture.

 

[chickmanna]

If the Ameraucana breeders wanted to raise a stink with hatcheries that call mutt birds by the name Ameraucana, I'll bet they could get huge support from the general membership of BYCers. It's not right, and IMO most people who purchase them really wouldn't care if they were called Easter Eggers. It's actually pretty catchy and anyway they just want the colored eggs.

The hatcheries have managed to come up with all kinda jazzy names for their sex-links, without stealing the name from any recognized breeds. I agree with BarnGoddess on this one - name stealing is misrepresentation and is not OK.