EE/Ameraucana frustration

[Bullitt]

So what about my amazon question?
If 2 pure bred yellow napped amazon parrots have babies and they hatch out an orange wing... or a blue front baby...
Is it STILL a PURE amazon parrot??

I take it these are birds that have been selectively bred by people, right? If so, you have to look up the standards for these parrots.

If these are wild birds it is a whole different thing.

 

[pips&peeps]

It would be different if the Ameraucana breeding club had invented the name an copyrighted it but the name predates the current APA standard breed an predates the breeding club so nether the APA or the breeding club has authority over the name or how it is used.

The Ameraucana Breed Club did invent the name. You are right, it was not copyrighted. What evidence do you have that supports your theory that the name predates the current standard? There are people in our club that are still members that made these birds and named them.

All easter egg type chickens were called araucanas by hatcheries before the ameraucana became a recognized breed and the hatcheries took the name and ran with it.

 

[redhen]

I take it these are birds that have been selectively bred by people, right? If so, you have to look up the standards for these parrots.

If these are wild birds it is a whole different thing.

So if you take 2 Wheaten Ameraucanas that have been selectively bred and get a strange color baby,its NOT an Ameraucana then?? Or is it STILL an Ameraucana,... but just not a "show" worthy color??..
Thats what is confusing me...

 

[Bullitt]

If it does not meet the standards for a breed, it cannot be called that breed. The nickname "Easter Egger" was created for chickens that lay colorful eggs and do not meet the standards of Araucana or Ameraucana.

But if you selectively breed for this new wild color and you get this new variety accepted, then it can be called an Ameraucana.

Selective breeding is all decisions made by people because they like the way an animal looks, behaves, or performs.

 

[redhen]

If it does not meet the standards for a breed, it cannot be called that breed. The nickname "Easter Egger" was created for chickens that lay colorful eggs and do not meet the standards of Araucana or Ameraucana.

But if you selectively breed for this new wild color and you get this new variety accepted, then it can be called an Ameraucana.

Selective breeding is all decisions made by people because they like the way an animal looks, behaves, or performs.

Okay.. sooo...
Then it really IS an Ameraucana then?? But because its not a standard color its simply called by another name??
I can understand THAT....
But its still an Ameraucana right?? Or no??

 

[BarnGoddess01]

the problem with saying that "non-standard" Ameraucanas aren't Ameraucanas is that it goes against a thousand years of animal husbandry.

ETA: this is why there is so much confusion. Things that are solid principles in every other species suddenly don't apply.

What thousands of years of animal husbandry CAN guarantee, it IS a chicken. That is what is in those genes. As has already been quoted, a chicken breed is not a breed until the APA/ABA says it's a breed. And that applies in other species as well - dogs, horses, cats, whatever. Breed names in any species are labels we are applying according to a strict set of rules established by those who promote and maintain the breed.

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

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This is the crux of the problem, Red. Some are saying that if you breed two wheaten ameraucanas together and get some color anomaly out of them, that the offspring are magically no longer an ameraucana, but rather an EE instead of saying that it is a poorly colored ameraucana. Nevermind that if I breed two welsummers together and get a poorly colored welsummer it is STILL a welsummer. THAT is the whole problem and I think why there is so much confusion on the topic (AND why hatcheries keep screwing up the name).

I will also point out that if COLOR ALONE can negate an ameraucana from being an ameraucana, then there are a number of high up members of the ameraucana breeders club that are NOT selling what they advertise. From eggs I have hatched from some of these members I have gotten gold leakage blues and white leakage blacks, both are which are a color default and by their rules makes the offspring EEs. Which would mean that they are not breeding true ameraucanas together as the offspring are not breeding true. Which would then mean that the whole deal is a sham. I prefer to think that I just got some eggs from ameraucanas with color issues. (Which by itself is a pain as I at one point had to dump an entire seasons worth of hatches and sell them as EES because the gold leakage thing was so prevalent. I tracked down the original culprits and moved them to my EE pen, but I lost an entire season of work on my ameraucana line.)
Problem B is the blue egg gene. I LOT of high up ameraucana breeders are selling AMs that lay a green egg. Even the chart of approved colors is mostly green and not blue. Even that isn't a great indicator. I was sorely disappointed when hens I hatched out from a prominent breeder all laid green eggs. I am now trying to clear the green out of my line, but to be honest only about half of mine lay what I would call a truly blue egg. The rest, while shaped correctly and colored correctly, still lay a greenish egg. When I questioned the breeder I was told that she worked more for conformation. Well, that's great, but ameraucanas are supposed to lay blue eggs. To me that is a bigger deal than feather color.

I personally think it is a lot more logical to say that the form of the bird and egg color are the standards and XYZ are the approved colors for showing. An Easter egger is an ameraucana mixed with something else. That is a lot clearer than what the "rules" say now.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

I will also point out that if COLOR ALONE can negate an ameraucana from being an ameraucana, then there are a number of high up members of the ameraucana breeders club that are NOT selling what they advertise. From eggs I have hatched from some of these members I have gotten gold leakage blues and white leakage blacks, both are which are a color default and by their rules makes the offspring EEs. Which would mean that they are not breeding true ameraucanas together as the offspring are not breeding true. Which would then mean that the whole deal is a sham. I prefer to think that I just got some eggs from ameraucanas with color issues. (Which by itself is a pain as I at one point had to dump an entire seasons worth of hatches and sell them as EES because the gold leakage thing was so prevalent. I tracked down the original culprits and moved them to my EE pen, but I lost an entire season of work on my ameraucana line.)

Problem B is the blue egg gene. I LOT of high up ameraucana breeders are selling AMs that lay a green egg. Even the chart of approved colors is mostly green and not blue. Even that isn't a great indicator. I was sorely disappointed when hens I hatched out from a prominent breeder all laid green eggs. I am now trying to clear the green out of my line, but to be honest only about half of mine lay what I would call a truly blue egg. The rest, while shaped correctly and colored correctly, still lay a greenish egg. When I questioned the breeder I was told that she worked more for conformation. Well, that's great, but ameraucanas are supposed to lay blue eggs. To me that is a bigger deal than feather color.

You have to remember, Ameraucanas are a relatively new breed and were only accepted into the Standard in the early 1980's. Because they are so new "stuff" happens. Ameraucanas must breed true 50% of the time. And if they don't you move them into your EE pen. Leakage does not mean the birds aren't breeding true. Just that they are less than perfect. Your Blues won't be DQ'd at a show with gold leakage.

As for the egg colour - you see 'green'. Somebody else calls it 'mint blue'. But I agree, there is still work to do on the egg colour. Certain varieties are further ahead in the egg colour department than others.

Conformation ("type") is a MUCH bigger deal than colour. It's worth a whole lot more points at the show.

 

[runsw/scissors]

Just because a lab is yellow and black doesn't mean it isn't a lab. (As you it said it IS unlikely). Show quality is not the same as pure bred. A pure bred animal can vary from the standard in all sorts of ways, but it is still pure bred! That, I think, gets to the heart of the dispute in Americauna/EE dispute.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll show myself to the door....

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[Bullitt]

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This is the crux of the problem, Red. Some are saying that if you breed two wheaten ameraucanas together and get some color anomaly out of them, that the offspring are magically no longer an ameraucana, but rather an EE instead of saying that it is a poorly colored ameraucana. Nevermind that if I breed two welsummers together and get a poorly colored welsummer it is STILL a welsummer. THAT is the whole problem and I think why there is so much confusion on the topic (AND why hatcheries keep screwing up the name).

Remember, the Ameraucana standards said that they must breed true at least 50 percent of the time. The chicks you hatched may not have met the standards but the parents could still meet the standards if they breed true at least 50 percent of the time.


There are color requirements for Welsummers also.

The Welsummer Club: http://www.welsummerclub.org/Standard.htm

PLUMAGE COLOUR
MALE
Head and neck, rich golden brown. Hackles rich golden brown as uniform as possible, free from black striping. Back, shoulder coverts and wing bow bright red-brown. Wing coverts black with green sheen forming a broad bar; primaries (out of sight when wing is closed), inner web black, outer web brown; secondaries, outer web brown, inner web black with brown peppering. Tail (main) black with a beetle green sheen; coverts, upper black, lower black edged with brown. Breast black with red mottling. Abdominal and thigh fluff black and red mottled.

PLUMAGE COLOUR
FEMALE
Head golden brown. Hackle golden brown or copper, the lower feathers with black striping and golden shaft. Breast rich chestnut red going well down to lower parts. Back and wing bow reddish brown, each feather stippled or peppered with black specks (i.e. partridge marking), shaft of feather showing lighter and very distinct. Wing bar chestnut brown; primaries, inner web black, outer brown; secondaries, outer web brown, coarsely stippled with black; inner web black, slightly peppered with brown. Abdomen and thighs brown with grey shading. Tail black, outer feathers pencilled with brown.