EE/Ameraucana frustration

[Stacykins]

FYI,

Birds must breed true at least 50% of the time. This is standard for all colors in the APA and ABA, which lets the blue variety of any breed exist.

Egg color is mentioned only as a charateristic in the Standard as "blue egg coloration". My buffs lay a poor colored egg, yet they are still ameraucanas. This is one of the youngest breeds in the Standard. The marans are new to America, but they have been around a long time.

I for one, do consider a mixed colored ameraucana an ameraucana; but only if I know who the breeder is and why. I know to tell people what they are and generally my birds like this are project birds. I believe the problem with the mixed colors thing is that the Club doesn't want new people to the breed to start mixing colors on a regular basis and get a whole flock of willy nilly colored birds. You have therefore missed the point of the purebred bird. Orpingtons aren't generally sold as mixed colors, neither are wyandottes or leghorns. It tends to help keep the easter egger confusion to a minimum.

Other breeds don't have to deal with the easter egger problem; a mixed bird is a mixed bird. Thank you Mr. Hatchery Man.......

Quoted for truth

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

Quote:

FYI,

Birds must breed true at least 50% of the time. This is standard for all colors in the APA and ABA, which lets the blue variety of any breed exist.

Egg color is mentioned only as a charateristic in the Standard as "blue egg coloration". My buffs lay a poor colored egg, yet they are still ameraucanas. This is one of the youngest breeds in the Standard. The marans are new to America, but they have been around a long time.

I for one, do consider a mixed colored ameraucana an ameraucana; but only if I know who the breeder is and why. I know to tell people what they are and generally my birds like this are project birds. I believe the problem with the mixed colors thing is that the Club doesn't want new people to the breed to start mixing colors on a regular basis and get a whole flock of willy nilly colored birds. You have therefore missed the point of the purebred bird. Orpingtons aren't generally sold as mixed colors, neither are wyandottes or leghorns. It tends to help keep the easter egger confusion to a minimum.

Other breeds don't have to deal with the easter egger problem; a mixed bird is a mixed bird. Thank you Mr. Hatchery Man.......

Yeah, it's the easter egger designation that throws the nomenclature off. I completely agree. If we could seperate the EE as a seperate entity it would simplify this conversation. Actually this conversation wouldn't even exist. Ams X whatever would just equal random mutt chicken. AM x bad AM would equal really bad AM.

I understand WHY the club is doing what they are doing. I don't want to see random willy nilly AMs running about either. I just hate it when a new person comes on here with their shiny new chickens that they were told were AMs and they get attacked. Clearing up our take on the language of the breed would allow for more power to stop the hatcheries from misrepresenting what they are selling.

Just for the record, I only designate my chickens as AMs if they come out of my pure AM pen. I only do BBS and this year I am only doing blue and splash since my rooster is splash. I know the heritage of my original stock and I have only bred mine from stock I got from reputable breeders. The line I got that was reputable that threw gold is no longer in my pure line and I don't even hatch her eggs in my EE pen. I am NOT advocating for randomly breeding colors together. I am just for clearing up the language a little.

 

[chickmanna]

Seems like there's a difference that needs to be noted here.

Based on the widely accepted definition of EE -
Mixing breeds (with one of them being an Ameraucana) produces EEs.

However, mixing colors within breeds MAY (depending on genetics of the parent birds) produce purebred offspring of a color not currently recognized in the SOP for the particular breed. That's very different from mixing breeds.

The problem with the hatcheries and uneducated "breeders" misrepresenting birds to people wanting a chicken that lays a blue-shell egg will be ongoing. It has important ramifications both economically for Ameraucana breeders and for the improvement of the Ameraucana breed, but it does seem like the battle would be better fought somewhere besides within the Ameraucana SOP.

 

[qball53]

I agree that is a splash wheaten and we have several. Blue time blue does not yield a uniform blue color. Blue is not a color gene as much as a dilution gene that works on black, lightening it to gray (blue). So, blue x blue yields a range of blue color from nearly back to pratically white. Those that are approaching white are called splash. This is very evident when breeding Blue Laced Red Wyandottes but it applies to many of the other brreds of blue colored birds.

 

[qball53]

Seems to me the Ameraucana breeders are just as guilty of spreading misinformation when they are misrepresenting their stock.

Please stop calling every possible color on the Ameraucana Breeders Club egg color reference chart "blue". The term "blue" is not a one size fits all that covers every possible shade of blue, gray, slate, turquoise, teal, or green.

And if it's true that any green egg layer must be an Easter Egger, why are all these other egg colors included on the chart? If all these other egg colors are acceptable, why are you telling a newbie that green is not acceptable? Can't have it both ways.


I have Wheaten & Blue Wheaten Ameracuanas as well as some lavander and split lavander Ameracuanas. I also have a pen of EE. If I cross these birds the Ameracuana and EE then I consider them EE. I have a Blue Wheaten Roo over the EE's at this time and he is producing some beautiful blue crosses on the EE. Frankly up til this time the EE pen has produced the most number of eggs by far and some of the BLUEST. This birds came from a feed store thus a hatchery. Most likely over the years their breeders were selected by egg color and not by feather color or body type. Ironically they do have a look of their own and some have quite a nice beard etc. I think Ameracuana breeders better be selecting for egg color and laying ability as well as type and feather color if they want to keep the value of their chosen breed up. Just my two cents.

 

[qball53]

It is a semantics issue and I have a hard time with the illogic of it all. It is so much easier to say that is an easter egger because one parent is not and ameraucana,


Before I start I believe I agree with you. The only thing confusing in what you have said, to me , is what I cut and pasted above. The EE birds sold by the hatcheries I believe have come from for the most part a group of birds formely considered Ameracauna/Arucana in this country, before they werre accepted and a standard or rather two standards set. Since there were no American standards at the time and the egg color seemed to be the important comercial quality that is what the group was culled for. So we now have the group of formerly Ameracuana birds renamed EE, no arguement here from me but I believe this is the confusing part for most. These birds have been or should be renamed to EE.

In addition to that we now have these EE birds that may be crossed with Ameracuanas of Arucanas and their offspring should be considered EE. We also have EE birds that are being crossed with Marans to lay olive eggs and some are calling them EE but some are calling them olive eggers. You are also seeing pure Ameracuana X pure Marans going for the olive egg.

 

[pips&peeps]

The egg chart was not made by the ABC. We got it from the British Araucana Club. It is a sampling of egg color shells they put together and shared with the ABC and the Araucana Club here in the US.

No where does it say the colors are blue. It says "Egg Color Reference Chart". And, no where on the chart does it say what colors are or are not acceptable.

The easter egger we see from hatcheries now are not the same birds they produced before the ameraucana came to be. Those birds were essentially the quechua, araucana mixes and tailed blue egg layers. The hatcheries took the name ameraucana after they were accepted and named through the APA.

Who knows what their "americanas" are today.


Quote:
A bird can posess the blue egg gene and still lay a green egg.....

Generally a mixed colored ameraucana will not breed true 50% of the time.

The definition was drawn up by Board Members of the Club many years ago and voted upon. Not all agreed to what is currently presented, but that is what the majority wanted.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

The egg chart was not made by the ABC. We got it from the British Araucana Club. It is a sampling of egg color shells they put together and shared with the ABC and the Araucana Club here in the US.

No where does it say the colors are blue. It says "Egg Color Reference Chart". And, no where on the chart does it say what colors are or are not acceptable.

The easter egger we see from hatcheries now are not the same birds they produced before the ameraucana came to be. Those birds were essentially the quechua, araucana mixes and tailed blue egg layers. The hatcheries took the name ameraucana after they were accepted and named through the APA.

Who knows what their "americanas" are today.


Quote:

A bird can posess the blue egg gene and still lay a green eggs.....

Generally a mixed colored ameraucana will not breed true 50% of the time.

The definition was drawn up by Board Members of the Club many years ago and voted upon. Not all agreed to what is currently presented, but that is what the majority wanted.

Somebody who actually knows what they are talking about!!!

Thank you, pips&peeps, for contributing.

 

[cjwaldon]

An Amearaucana only needs to breed true 50% of the time to be considered pure.

Say what!!!

Isn't this akin to breeding a Greyhound to a Greyhound and half the pups look like Greyhounds and the other half have short legs, long hair, wrong ear set, and feathered tails, but since half the offspring are correct, the parents are breeding true and are still therefore considered purebred Greyhounds? We'll just call the wrong half Easter Eggers.

(FWIW - if I was in the market for a purebred Greyhound and someone sent me hatching eggs from their purebred Greyhounds and I hatched out chicks with short legs, long hair, wrong ear set, and feathered tails, I would be one really PO'd customer.)

 

[Stacykins]

An Amearaucana only needs to breed true 50% of the time to be considered pure.

Say what!!!

Isn't this akin to breeding a Greyhound to a Greyhound and half the pups look like Greyhounds and the other half have short legs, long hair, wrong ear set, and feathered tails, but since half the offspring are correct, the parents are breeding true and are still therefore considered purebred Greyhounds? We'll just call the wrong half Easter Eggers.

(FWIW - if I was in the market for a purebred Greyhound and someone sent me hatching eggs from their purebred Greyhounds and I hatched out chicks with short legs, long hair, wrong ear set, and feathered tails, I would be one really PO'd customer.)

Chicken genetic traits are much different than dog ones. Most are easily known as dominant, recessive, etc. and can be predicted, dog genetics are much more complicated. For example, tufted Araucanas can only produce 50% tufted offspring since a tufted chicken is only heterozygous for the dominant gene. Homozygous embryos die in shell (approx 25% of offspring if parents are tufted x tufted). Since tufting is a breed requirement, this can make the breed tricky.