Encouraging exercise & sanitation (Getting 'em off the ground) = cotes

[Resolution]

Anyone that suggests that there is a one size fits all solution is ignorant of the history of agriculture.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
It's not the cold.... it's the WIND. They just *have* to have somewhere to get out of the wind. You can certainly have open-air type coops in northern climates, but they have to be really DEEP (which doesn't work well with tiny coops, like 4x6)

Feather dander and moulted feathers are the source of transmission of Mareks

Isn't Mareks pretty much everywhere already? So unless you know you have an unusually pathogenic strain on the farm, is it really a big thing to worry about?

I've been in process of writing my arguments against the deep litter method-for a new thread. The gist of that is that the deep litter method can and often does perpetuate certain molds and bacterium that are harmful for fowl over the long term. This comes from some very focused data from the avian pathologists union.

Ah, but the thing is, there is no "the" deep litter method. There are a bazillion different ways of doing that sort of thing, spanning really quite a large spectrum of situations. Pretty hard to generalize from a study of one particular method (which I would guess is probably a *commercial* chicken-farm deep litter method at that, given that avian pathologists could not generally give a hoot about backyard chickens)

Pat​

 

[Resolution]

The open air cote is used for fledgling chicks from the brooder during the summer.
Mareks is one described infectious disease problem attributed to feather dander/follicles but common sense reminds us that birds don't live in environments where shed cellular material, especially that material which fungus and mold delight upon, can be inhaled or ingested. This is one reason that birds perch to preen- to rid their feathers of the old broken down cellular material. It's not a deadly toxin by any means but old feathers feed mites and feather lice, they are attractive to fungi and mold. You can't avoid them in captive situations but you can be mindful about how much of the stuff is collecting and where.

 

[Olive Hill]

Resolution -- I've read your posts on this topic many times. Unfortunately, every time you use much the same support for your position and every time it falls apart in the same way. And yes you're reading this all right, it's not condescending or patronizing just matter of fact.

Hilly jungles, fallen logs and rocky terrain are all still on the ground. And where they cover the soil they are the ground.

You're also mistaken on the lives of ground birds. Ground birds in locales with a lot of rocky terrain, hills and fallen logs available utilize them -- no doubt about that. Here, wild turkeys can be found spending most of their days in flat, open fields. Quail and pheasants likewise. Yes, when "ground" birds move from one elevated place to another they will use trees, branches, logs, rocks and what have you to take the easiest route. That is not evidence that being on the ground is detrimental to their health and well being. It's a survival mechanism, he who exerts the least energy to get done what he needs to get done has the most energy to spare when he needs it. He who uses the easiest route and eats the easiest to find food lives the longest.

Large objects like those you have cited catch and hold droppings in much the same way the ground does. It sticks to rocks and fallen logs and large branches and hills just as it would a flat, mowed lawn in a suburb. Spending time on elevated features of the terrain does not eliminate or even necessarily reduce the birds' exposure to their own feces -- the ample spaces they have to roam does that.

Contact with pathogens found in manure, dander and feathers can boost the immune system. Studies have shown children reared in the homes of those who disinfect obsessively are more likely to contract illness once they enter the "real" world. In a healthy chicken reasonable contact with pathogens should be viewed positively. It allows the chicken to slowly build immunity to pathogens common to their environment.

If a farmer or backyard keeper's coop is "filthy" that's on them. Obviously "filthy" conditions will be more likely to lead to disease. That's not rocket science, but it's also not support in and of itself that a cote is a superior method of rearing chickens. It's just support that non-filthy conditions are superior for rearing chickens. But I don't think we're breaking any revolutionary thought barriers there, now are we.

As for the "swine are obliged to adapt" comment, it goes right back to the same thing: space. Given adequate space hogs are incredibly clean animals. Given space chickens (and ducks and geese and turkeys and, and, and...) can be incredibly clean animals. The elevation of that space relative to the rest of their surroundings is of no consequence. There is no problem you present as evidence in support of building a "cote" vs a "coop" that cannot be solved with more space. Plain and simple.

 

[Resolution]

Quote:
Room is certainly the crux of the issue. Being that a majority of people in the suburbs have very little room, generating more physical space- the space accessible to the birds- the diversification of those close confines- allowing for different regions within a closed environment- this is has been my urging.
Providing adequate space is of vital significance in the fight against the cycle of disease and infection.
I couldn't agree with you more.

I'll let your argument stand for itself. Nothing I can say will persuade against your being diametrically opposed to my "evidence".

I can't assure you as a wildlife biologist and one that has spent many more months and years than I care to admit, sitting in blinds studying gallinaceous birds, collecting their droppings; analysing through amino acid profiles the manure of wild and domestic species, years of studying the contents of crops or decades of designing and building farms and zoological exhibits-my decades of research and practice in avian pathology-avian veterinary medicine-or a lifetime of experiences of farming- none of that is going to change your opinion.

Don't build a cote or retrofit your existing coop.

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
I a SOOOO interested in learning more about this. I just know there has to be a better way. I am so sick and tired of cleaning shavings from the coop. I know some recommend allowing the shavings and poop to become 50-50. I just can not do that. I spend nearly as much money on shavings as I do feed (well, not quite, but..... alot) because I am so frequently cleaning it ALL out and starting fresh. Droppings boards have been very helpful, but I do not have them in all of my coops yet. Slings may work better for me in a few of them .... thanks for that information.

I agree, the avian respiratory system is complicated and many have no idea..... I find it quite interesting.

I have noticed that my chickens DO fly as high as they can possibly get, to roost .... ie to the rafters if available. I worry about my heavier breeds (Jersey Giants) doing this, as when they come down, they do land with a thud.

 

[Olive Hill]

Quote:
Room is certainly the crux of the issue. I couldn't agree with you more. I'll let you argument stand for itself. Nothing I can say will persuade against your being diametrically opposed to my "evidence".

I can't assure you as a wildlife biologist and one that has spent many more months and years than I care to admit, sitting in blinds studying gallinaceous birds, collecting their droppings; analysing through amino acid profiles the manure of wild and domestic species, years of studying the contents of crops or decades of designing and building farms and zoological exhibits-my decades of research and practice in avian pathology-avian veterinary medicine-or a lifetime of experiences of farming- none of that is going to change your opinion.

Don't build a cote or retrofit your existing coop.

Aww, now, facetiousness isn't necessary. Though I do admit to sharing your appreciation for it.

Present me with a problem a cote fixes that cannot be resolved with simply more space and I'll happily join the cote brigade. So far nothing you've presented supports that.

 

[Resolution]

I used to worry about my heavy breeds landing heavily until I realised that as baby chicks, every jump lands on the keel. Weight is an issue. Perches and roosts can be high and their adjacent feeding/foraging tables can be close enough that the birds can land on the sand. Of course I see my Marans just fling themselves into the ether - landing with a thud. Knock wood- no broken legs or sprained anythings. One worry well worth planning through is the possibility of a heavy hen damaging an egg that still within her reproductive system. It's never happened to date but worry is warranted.

I do see that some hens, especially those that have never been encouraged to perch in a different air circulation plane than where they scratch about, dust bathe or eat - will never learn to.
They don't have the muscles to get their plump bodies very far off the ground either. I've learned to designate these sweethearts as vermin bait. A tiny little weasel can wage more disharmony than can scarcely be imagined. It's often the hen that perches lowest that gets injured or killed.
Ladders are fantastic for this purpose. I also find that the heavier birds that can't utilise the synthesized mid forest canopy or subterranean coastal cavern -- their roosts can be replaces with a few heavy perches that have just a little bit of give- tied firmly in place- but that mimic the rocking branch- it requires a few more flaps and pauses- even some desperate bill pull ups -to remain on the roost at the onset of settling down for the night. Great! Get those girls to use their breast muscles and circulate more oxygen through their systems.

 

[Olive Hill]

Quote:
Room is certainly the crux of the issue. Being that a majority of people in the suburbs have very little room, generating more physical space- the space accessible to the birds- the diversification of those close confines- allowing for different regions within a closed environment- this is has been my urging.
Providing adequate space is of vital significance in the fight against the cycle of disease and infection.
I couldn't agree with you more.

I'll let your argument stand for itself. Nothing I can say will persuade against your being diametrically opposed to my "evidence".

I can't assure you as a wildlife biologist and one that has spent many more months and years than I care to admit, sitting in blinds studying gallinaceous birds, collecting their droppings; analysing through amino acid profiles the manure of wild and domestic species, years of studying the contents of crops or decades of designing and building farms and zoological exhibits-my decades of research and practice in avian pathology-avian veterinary medicine-or a lifetime of experiences of farming- none of that is going to change your opinion.

Don't build a cote or retrofit your existing coop.

Re-replying to respond to your added content. I do think we agree whole-heartedly on the core of the issue, just have different ways of approaching a resolution. Which just goes to support your earlier comment:

Anyone that suggests that there is a one size fits all solution is ignorant of the history of agriculture.

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
Thank you. My intent is to do exactly that ......Get those girls to use their breast muscles and circulate more oxygen through their systems.