Ethics in Showing

[saladin]

At least a couple of you understand. Of course, I was only speaking about APA/ABA sanctioned shows. I should have mentioned that in the original post. When I think about 'Shows' I never imagine any other kind.

What is amazing is that folks who think my ethical standards are offensive just don't get the fact that I am offended by their lack of standards.

 

[saladin]

You have to also wonder how many of those kids, Zach, continue to show once they reach adulthood? You do, but then again you were raised with the same kind of ethical standards as I raised my kids. My kids (now adults) still show.

I guess when you actually have something invested then you are more than likely to stick with it.

 

[1muttsfan]

I hope that no one takes personal offense at the OP's views. He makes some good points about taking credit for someone else's hard work. I see the same thing in all aspects of showing, for example horses that spend all their time at a professional trainer and being trotted out with the owner on board for shows - a big pet peeve for me. Showing can be a great pleasure, even more so if you are showing the result of your own efforts. If you show the result of other's efforts, IMO the correct thing to do would be to give them credit.

 

[4hchickmama]

I frankly don't care who he is. Certainly he is entitled to his opinion, but to call others "unethical" because they don't agree with it is rude and YES offensive. Thankfully, his opinion isn't aligned with the rules for showing poultry, or any other kind of animal in shows. There are other ways you can state your opinion without calling others unethical.

 

[WarrenHound]

wow *whistle* SOME people do not have the blessing of living in an area where they can breed and raise their own birds to show because they may not be able to own roosters or have a limit to how many they can own where they live. i certainly do not consider it "unethical" to buy good stock to show from a breeder or whatnot rather than producing your own when it may not be possible.

some people can not afford or even work an incubator i have people out here that have volunteered to pay me 50.00 to hatch 5 eggs that they are going to have to mail in to be hatched....does that make them unethical?? no it means they dont have the means to hatch them i helped them find a closer local breeder and they are showing in 4H now with the birds they bought.

frankly boys and girls you cant make birds from nothing so they had to come from somewhere are they suppose to hatch those eggs or raise those chicks then breed and find some way to hatch them or hope the hen goes broody? it all starts from somewhere

and frankly isnt it better if they get them from someone that knows their birds? alot of ppl are just starting out adults and kids i dont want to see the chicken people harshing on the newbies like the dog show ppl do.


when i decided i wanted a show dog i HAD to go to a breeder that isnt my own line and i cant breed him unless he is a CH as per his contract so am i "unethical" because i havent bred him and shown his offspring?? certainly not i AM ethical for adhering to my contract.

my success in the ring is my own, my dog came to me at 12 weeks old past that the success or failure of my animal is my own doing if the conformation is correct. my breeder can be proud of what she produced but it is ME in the ring and working with him just like it is the kid or adult that raises the chick or young bird's success at a show with their birds.

i doubt most kids or many adults could do what you suggest! i looked into moving to oregon recently i was stunned by how many places that have a limit of 4 birds and no roosters...so how would i even manage what you suggest? in fact most areas i had to APPLY for a permit @.@

 

[gallorojo]

Showing animals you did not breed yourself is like buying paint, brushes, and a canvas, hiring an artist to paint a picture, and then you enter the finished work in an art show as your own. After all, you bought the supplies, hired the artist, and directed him, so the work is yours right? ;P The trainer doesn't win the gold medal in the Olympics do they? The athlete does!! Of course a patron of the arts or an athletic trainer deserves credit for a job well done, but that's as far as it should, and does, go. Yes, you deserve credit for good husbandry, but showing poultry implies you are the breeder. It is not necessarily like dogs and horses.

We all have limitations. If you live in a place where you can't keep cocks,then don't show purebred birds.

 

[4hchickmama]

Showing animals you did not breed yourself is like buying paint, brushes, and a canvas, hiring an artist to paint a picture, and then you enter the finished work in an art show as your own. After all, you bought the supplies, hired the artist, and directed him, so the work is yours right? ;P The trainer doesn't win the gold medal in the Olympics do they? The athlete does!! Of course a patron of the arts or an athletic trainer deserves credit for a job well done, but that's as far as it should, and does, go. Yes, you deserve credit for good husbandry, but showing poultry implies you are the breeder. It is not necessarily like dogs and horses.
We all have limitations. If you live in a place where you can't keep cocks,then don't show purebred birds.

And as I said before, if this was actually the rule and not just one mans opinion, then programs like 4H and FFA would die out as the areas where one can own land without ordinances grows thin. Having said that, I get the point with adult shows. When you are talking about exhibiting a bird in a cage, you ar saying "Look at what I did". In youth and junior 4H shows, we are talking about the very basics and beginning steps of learning poultry exhibition, showmanship, and handling. Not to mention, there is a whole lot more to poultry showmanship than putting a bird in a cage and getting a ribbon. If you personally have not worked with your bird, then you will not do well. As for the 5 year old with the parent prepping the bird in the corner...they are 5. They can't possibly do all the prep work themselves. You are supposed to show them, and they learn. Primary and cloverbud members are not judged with the Youth, Junior, and Senior exhibitors. So it isn't like the bird getting help from mom and not the 5 year old is going to be at a better advantage than a bird actually cared for 100% by another member. I would say 90% of the birds entered at any 4H/FFA youth show were bought from breeders and not home bred. Why? For the reasons I listed above. Some people simply cannot breed birds themselves...you should probably be glad that they can still enter, otherwise there would be very few entries in shows, and they would die out. Right now, as it stands, The OPs opinion is NOT the rule, nor is it implied as the ethical thing to do. What my kids have learned a great deal from 4H in many different areas...to take that away from them simply because they cannot have a rooster and breed their own birds is ludicrous. If we ever move to where we can have more birds, or a rooster, I'd love for them to have that experience, but to cut them out completely just because they can't have a rooster now, or call them unethical for the hundreds of hours or love, care, and training they have put into their birds simply because they didn't have land for a breeding program is just...silly.

 

[cubakid]

In youth and junior 4H shows, we are talking about the very basics and beginning steps of learning poultry exhibition, showmanship, and handling. 

If they care they exert themselves. I started learning genetics and breeding at age 10 in 4h. Not a joke. I plan to go to college for it too.

As for the 5 year old with the parent prepping the bird in the corner...they are 5.  They can't possibly do all the prep work themselves. 

Then why are they spending thousands of dollars to not even like the darn things. Like doc said, none of them will continue to show.

You are supposed to show them, and they learn. 
Primary and cloverbud members are not judged with the Youth, Junior, and Senior exhibitors.  So it isn't like the bird getting help from mom and not the 5 year old is going to be at a better advantage than a bird actually cared for 100% by another member.

Do parents walk into the hog ring showing their kids pig while they "learned", ludicrous thought. I could give a rip about the poor standards kept up by a county fair or 4h show. As for an actual youth show, 4h rules are not in place. And there is no clover buds or primary, there is just kids showing for thier enjoyment. So dad paying 150$ for one of thier 50 birds and showing it under her name is ludicrous. We have a youth show that I put on with my dad and I have had stiff competition by both breeders and buyers as *juniors*. We have had 600+ entries of birds noted by the APA judges as, of high of quality as competitive open shows, to be honest they are not just being kind.

   Right now, as it stands, The OPs opinion is NOT the rule

No one including the original poster, sees it as a rule. You just continue to argue about something you clearly don't know the facts to. There are no 'real' youth rules for showing poultry.

otherwise there would be very few entries in shows, and they would die out.

^You care about the preservation of poultry but...
not about an officer of the club for preservation of poultry, who is clearly worried as stated that these kids will not continue to raise poultry outside of these mere 4h projects.

I frankly don't care who he is. 

His opinion is the truth about the future of poultry having possible weaknesses.

edited by staff

 

[4hchickmama]

If they care they exert themselves. I started learning genetics and breeding at age 10 in 4h. Not a joke. I plan to go to college for it too.
Then why are they spending thousands of dollars to not even like the darn things. Like doc said, none of them will continue to show.
Do parents walk into the hog ring showing their kids pig while they "learned", ludicrous thought. I could give a rip about the poor standards kept up by a county fair or 4h show. As for an actual youth show, 4h rules are not in place. And there is no clover buds or primary, there is just kids showing for thier enjoyment. So dad paying 150$ for one of thier 50 birds and showing it under her name is ludicrous. We have a youth show that I put on with my dad and I have had stiff competition by both breeders and buyers as *juniors*. We have had 600+ entries of birds noted by the APA judges as, of high of quality as competitive open shows, to be honest they are not just being kind.

No one including the original poster, sees it as a rule. You just continue to argue about something you clearly don't know the facts to. There are no 'real' youth rules for showing poultry.
^You care about the preservation of poultry but...
not about an officer of the club for preservation of poultry, who is clearly worried as stated that these kids will not continue to raise poultry outside of these mere 4h projects.
His opinion is the truth about the future of poultry having possible weaknesses.

Thats great you plan to go to college for genetics, however, that doesn't mean that a child who didn't breed their own showmanship bird isn't going to do the same thing.

I know of NO ONE who spends thousands of dollars on a showmanship bird in 4H.

5 year olds cannot show a hog, for that very reason. You have to be older than 4th grade and not a primary member to show anything besides rabbits, cavies, or poultry.

edited by staff

 

[cubakid]

I was raised not to attack people and if you feel that way I'm sorry. I'm not exerting myself or my future onto anyone. You still don't understand that this thread is not aimed entirely at 4h kids that can't raise cocks on their premises, as like you said 90% or more live in town or in city limits. I agree that no one would spent thousands of dollars on a single bird, that was not my point. My point being that my parents would not have spent the thousands they do, if it was a hobby or if I was not going to do nothing. I do almost everything. My parents help as well as other youth and I give back. But this is not the future of poultry, showing till you grow out of it, and buying birds until then... Who will be there to sell those birds when those breeders are gone, and who was there to sell those birds to the breeder your birds came from, and so forth. It has to cycle, otherwise the fancy will be gone.

edited by staff