Expert Problem Re: Sexing and Feed

[linuxusr]

Hello All,

I have 11 pullets, 2.5 months of age in an outdoor coop with 300 lbs. of soil for waste management that I turn over every day. I am from the U.S. and retired in the Dominican Republic. In Spanish my breed is referred to as jabao. I will do a separate post with pix for help with breed identification.

Meanwhile . . . when you are new at something and don't know much, e.g. raising chickens, and you speak to the local expert, that can be a problem, for you never know if what s(he) is saying is correct or not because you lack experience. But you can make deductions by observation over time.

So, regarding sexing, when I purchased my chicks at maybe 2 or 3 weeks of age, my expert neighbor sexed them and checked for health. At that time, I had 9 females and 3 males. Now, two months later s(he) comes by to check my flock and Voila! I have 4 females and 7 males! This indicates to me that my "expert" doesn't know how to sex chickens. But how about at 2.5 months? Could s(he) sex them correctly now? My expert wants to swap out 3 of my males for 3 adult females. But what if he's wrong? I hate to give up any of my beautiful birds, exp. when there might be another mistake. I'm thinking, why rush? Wait until they are adults and there is no doubt how many hens and roosters I have. BTW, one is crowing now.

And as regards food, I'm buying what is probably a fine, mixed grain and high protein for the chicks to gain weight. Unfortunately, the company does not list the ingredients on the sacks or the website and the company that sells this product has no idea what's in it. But my chickens at 2.5 months are huge! How much of that has to do with the breed and/or the feed, I cannot say. My expert comes by and says that they will become obese, asphyxiate and die if I continue to feed as such and he suggests I start to mixed in whole corn, maybe 20%, so they can acclimate to the new feed. I figure there's no harm in this, so may as well.

Your thoughts/advice much appreciated!

 

[Mrs. K]

I like a little corn in my feed - makes for yellow eggs. But as to the rest of the feed issue, I might try this, do not feed free choice. Put out some feed, check at night, if it is empty, feed a little more the next day, if there is some left, feed a little less the next day. Remove the feed at night - chickens don't eat it, but rodents do.

Often times people just getting started, over feed their birds. A lot of feed goes to waste, as there is so much, the birds just bill it out, and trample it into the dirt. This can make your run stink. Your comment of turning over the soil each day makes me wonder about that. I never turn over the soil, but I will sprinkle scratch on bedding so the chickens will turn it for me.

As for the sexing - it is very common for experienced people in poultry, to take a guess and be wrong at 2-3 weeks of age. At 2.5 months of age it is MUCH MORE CLEAR. Generally speaking, if I ever think "wait, is that a cockerel?" it generally is. So, I WOULD take those old girls in a heartbeat, and keep the ones they tell you they are pullets.

Or post pictures on here, people are often asking what sex is this, and we love to chime in. Sometimes it is obvious, and sometimes not so much, but we are pretty honest bunch, and are generally right.

Welcome to this site, it is a great bunch of enthusiasts.

Mrs K

 

[linuxusr]

That would be good, because quick google got me this:
"Jabao is a Spanish Caribbean slang term for a person of mixed race, commonly used on the islands"


Is this expert the person you bought the chicks from?
With most breeds the gender is obvious by about 6 weeks, due the com and wattles size and color.

My expert raises a large flock and is honest but, like many Dominicans in this developing country, semi-literate, and sometimes mistaken in his assertions because he does not investigate. No, he was not the seller, and when we went to the place to buy, a place with many, many types of birds, including peacocks and peahens, he was very wary of the seller, and did not listen to him. Besides sexing at about 2.5 weeks, he was on the lookout for coryza.

Many of my birds now do have distinct combs and wattles, so I will upload photos and we'll see if I can get an answer on how many males.

If "jabao" is to be taken as a metaphor for this type of chicken, that would suggest a hybrid. But this type of chicken is distinctive, so I'm not sure. We'll see what people say when I upload photos today.

Your comments are much appreciated.

 

[aart]

I will do a separate post with pix for help with breed identification.

That would be good, because quick google got me this:
"Jabao is a Spanish Caribbean slang term for a person of mixed race, commonly used on the islands"

So, regarding sexing, when I purchased my chicks at maybe 2 or 3 weeks of age, my expert neighbor sexed them and checked for health.

Is this expert the person you bought the chicks from?
With most breeds the gender is obvious by about 6 weeks, due the com and wattles size and color.

 

[linuxusr]

I like a little corn in my feed - makes for yellow eggs. But as to the rest of the feed issue, I might try this, do not feed free choice. Put out some feed, check at night, if it is empty, feed a little more the next day, if there is some left, feed a little less the next day. Remove the feed at night - chickens don't eat it, but rodents do.

Often times people just getting started, over feed their birds. A lot of feed goes to waste, as there is so much, the birds just bill it out, and trample it into the dirt. This can make your run stink. Your comment of turning over the soil each day makes me wonder about that. I never turn over the soil, but I will sprinkle scratch on bedding so the chickens will turn it for me.

As for the sexing - it is very common for experienced people in poultry, to take a guess and be wrong at 2-3 weeks of age. At 2.5 months of age it is MUCH MORE CLEAR. Generally speaking, if I ever think "wait, is that a cockerel?" it generally is. So, I WOULD take those old girls in a heartbeat, and keep the ones they tell you they are pullets.

Or post pictures on here, people are often asking what sex is this, and we love to chime in. Sometimes it is obvious, and sometimes not so much, but we are pretty honest bunch, and are generally right.

Welcome to this site, it is a great bunch of enthusiasts.

Mrs K

Hello Mrs. K.,

Your comments and suggestions are much appreciated.

(1) You have suggested a feeding method but I don't really understand it. Why don't I tell you how I feed and you tell me if I should keep my procedure as is or how I should change it. When I wake up, the flock is out of water and food and hungry and thirsty. They get a full drink and feed, then, one by one, as s(he) finishes, lies down in the shady part of the outdoor L shaped coop (the short end of the L has a roof) for a rest. Around noonish, the food is gone and all are hungry again. Another full feeding. Around 4:00 P.M. or so another, and the last feeding before roosting, around 7:00 P.M. So I am feeding directly into the feeder, without waste, around four times per day. Daily, I also hand feed stalks and leaves of the green vegetable cilantro, which they really like.

Keep doing what I'm doing or change something?

(2) It's rainy season and it rains every day. This means that my soil is compacted from the driving rain, and very wet, so they do not scratch. As soon as I turn the soil over, they start scratching and digging. This also submerges the poop so that it has a better chance of decomposition.

(3) You mention sprinkling scratch on the bedding. I don't know what scratch is (I'm thinking that it's food like unmilled corn) that you throw. I believe that 100 years or so ago, that people did not use feeders but rather cast or threw the food items. And I don't understand how that helps with turnover. My chickens scratch, instinctively, looking for food, even if there is none, but only if the soil is loose.

(4) Regarding sexing, I'm now going to take some photos and upload them.

Your comments and thoughts much appreciated.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I'll include this link to maybe help you sex those chicks, at least know what to look for. It's not always easy, even when they are older. On very rare occasions I can tell if a specific chick is male or female at hatch by posture and attitude, most of the time I can tell sex by five weeks with a lot of certainty, but I almost gave someone a cockerel at 4 months when they wanted a pullet. There is science involved but some art also, and experience really helps. Some can still be hard.

How to sex chicks

http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=48329

At 2-1/2 months yours should fairly easy. If you take photos I'd appreciate two of each chick. A close-up of the head showing comb and wattles. If you can include the hackle feathers in this that might be a bonus thought hey may still be too young for that. What I'm looking for here is the size and color of the comb and wattles. At that age bright red means boy, size can be a big hint. The hackle feathers ae the neck feathers. If they are sharp it means boy, rounded girl, but 10 weeks may be too young to show that.

A profile photo showing legs and posture can help a lot. Long heavy legs means male. Upright posture and body conformation can be huge clues. Curving tail feathers are a clue that it could be a boy but some pullets can have those too. A lot of these things are more clues than something definitive but experience can help with that.

Are these "breeds" varieties of various species that in modern times are bred for particular characteristics?

This is my understanding of how breeds developed. At one point in history chickens were feral, living wild and free. Then mankind figured out how to domesticate them, so they did to keep a meat and egg supply handy. Over time they learned how to selectively breed them, maybe to specialize for better egg laying or meat production, some like Silkies or Polish just to be decorative. They are still not breeds, maybe call them "types" or maybe landrace. One definition of landrace is groups of animals or plants that over time undergo natural and artificial selection to promote the stable production of food.

Then somebody (probably a bunch of drunk nobles) decided to compete to see who could breed the best chicken, so they decided to hold contests and get somebody to judge that. Before someone could judge them they had to know what the criteria was, so standards were developed. That's when they became breeds. Eventually associations were formed and what we now call "SOP" or Standards Of Perfection were accepted.

Of course it is more complicate than that. One interesting thing about breed is that there is no one genetic way to get there. The judge doesn't have to know genetically how you got there, the chicken just has to meet the visual description. There is debate if color is actually a breed requirement as many breeds have different approved colors. Regardless, if an approved color is white, there are different ways genetically to make an all-white bird. The judge doesn't care which genetic method you used, just that the bird is an acceptable white. Genetic sequencing may not help much in defining a breed.

I understand that many people on this forum get really hung up on breed. To me, unless you are showing chickens or selling "breed" hatching eggs, chicks, or chickens breed isn't important. It is totally manmade. Chickens don't care about breed, they just see chickens. I don't know if the Dominican Republic has a national poultry association that has recognized the Jabao as a specific breed with an SOP. My guess is that they are a landrace and not a breed. I'd think if an SOP existed an internet search would find it mentioned.

But there is something in those photos that makes me not sure at all, they could be a specific cross, a hybrid instead of a landrace. I agree the ones in the top photo all look male, even the one bending over because of the bright red comb and the two in the bottom photo look female. If that is the case all the boys are barred and the girls shown are not. That is a way to tell sex. If you mate a barred hen with a not-barred rooster all the resulting boys will be barred and the girls will not. Although they are not black that is known as a "black sex link" cross. If Jabao are a landrace that might just be a coincidence in your case but it is suspicious. If they are a specific hybrid cross they would not be considered a breed because they would not breed true.

 

[aart]

If you look at my last post, you'll see that the answer is No one! I'm between a rock and a hard place! The only upside is that I don't have 100% cockerels.

Another upside would be turning the cockerels into meat for the freezer.

 

[linuxusr]

Another upside would be turning the cockerels into meat for the freezer.

Cough! Cough! My babies? Yeah, I get it.

 

[LizzzyJo]

Cough! Cough! My babies? Yeah, I get it.

After they attack you a few times, they'll start looking tastier.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The two new pullets are attacked either by another pullet or the cockerel when they try to leave a nesting box where they stay sequestered.

From the behavior you describe it sounds like the two new pullets are a bit younger than the others. It's pretty normal for my less mature chickens to be afraid of more mature chickens. The older outrank the younger in the pecking order and often aren't shy about pecking them if they invade their personal space. The way my chickens handle that is that the younger stay away from the older. Yours are doing that by hiding in the nest.

How much room do you have in meters a coop or how much room in a run? A photo of what your facilities look like could be really helpful. A standard way to handle that is to house them across wire for a while until they get used to each other and then give them enough room so they can avoid each other. Providing multiple feed and water stations can help, the older like to intimidate the younger by keeping them away from food and water. Adding clutter to the space can improve the quality of what space you have. Clutter means things for them to hide under, behind, or above, something to break the line of sight. I understand your story of the bent nails. Dad never threw away a nail that could maybe be straightened. If I could understand what room you have to work with I might be able to make specific suggestions.