farm guinea pigs (meat cavy!)

[Fuzzy Torpedoes]

manna pro rabbit pellets

Utilizing a better pellet could be an option. That rabbit pellet resembles the low quality guinea pig one used in this study: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ation_of_guinea_pigs_Cavia_aperea_f_porcellus .

Scroll down to "4. Discussion" in the study to see an overview of what they found when they fed the 2 foods to 2 different groups of breeding guinea pigs.

The text explains the foods used:

"The experimental diets were both standard, nutritionally complete guinea pig diets purchased from Altromin (Lage, Germany): the high-quality (HQ) diet (Altromin 3013, recommended for breeding) was characterized by a high protein and low fiber content, whereas the low-quality (LQ) diet (Altromin 3123) contained low protein and high fiber (Table 1). The protein content of the low-quality diet represented the minimum protein requirement for guinea pig maintenance (Hamel, 2002). Apart from protein and fiber, the other nutritional components of the two diets differed only slightly (Table 1)."

Here's what I found on your pellet:

Crude Protein Min 16.00 % <----
Crude Fat Min 2.50 % <----
Crude Fiber Min 16.00 % <----
Crude Fiber Max 21.00 % <-----
Calcium Min 0.75 %
Calcium Max 1.25 %
Phosphorus Min 0.50 %
Salt Min 0.25 %
Salt Max 0.75 %
Vitamin A Min 3,000 IU/lb
(note - no vitamin C, due to not being a guinea pig pellet).

Here's the low quality diet tested in that study:

Crude protein (%) 14.0
Crude fat (%) 4.0
Crude fiber (%) 19.5

The high quality diet in the study is identified as the Altromin 3013 - I have more complete information on it than their table shows:

Crude protein (%) 23.0
Crude fat (%) 5.0
Crude fiber (%) 12.0
Calcium 0.9%
Phosphorus 0.7 %

I don't think you can get the Altromin 3013 in USA - at least I'm not seeing a USA firm in Altromin's list of distributors. So far the guinea pig food in USA that I can quickly find that is doing the role of Altromin 3013 isn't as good. The one I found was "Oxbow Essentials Cavy Performance Young Guinea Pig Food": https://www.chewy.com/oxbow-essentials-cavy-performance/dp/123570 .

I'm not in love with the Oxbow. Compared to the Altromin 3013, the protein's low, fiber's high, fat's low, calcium is off. Oxbow's best food looks like the Altromin mid-range food to me.

Crude Protein 18.0% min
Crude Fat 2.5% min
Crude Fiber 18.0% min
Crude Fiber 23.0% max
Moisture 10.0% max
Calcium 0.6% min
Calcium 1.1% max
Phosphorus 0.25% min
Vitamin A 10,000 IU/kg min
Vitamin D 900 IU/kg min
Vitamin E 190 IU/kg min
Ascorbic Acid 400 mg/kg min

Perhaps there is a better one to be found in USA. But even this is better than than the rabbit food. The Oxbow guinea pig food also has the Vitamin C that they need (rabbit food won't have that).

 

[Bug n Flock]

Yeaaah, they don't eat a lot of pellets. I don't like offering commercial diets to my animals as a general rule of thumb, so when I do offer them, I make them the least appealing thing on offer. I honestly doubt that the rabbit pellets were a factor. Especially since this is the first time this has happened, and the diet has not changed since the last successful breeding. Thanks for the input tho, but their diet is mostly the hays and fresh veg. And I put a multivitamin in the water in addition to the wide variety of daily fresh veg matter, so I really don't think it was a vitamin deficiency either.

 

[Bug n Flock]

Do you think it more likely to have been from an acute thing or a chronic one tho actually? Because in my mind I'm thinking something happened recently (think the stress afew days ago is looking mighty guilty), but maybe it was something that built up over time? Shrug.

Here is a pic of poor Ms. Pocket.
Taken just now, and the photogenic (yeah right) diva decided just then was the time to scratch her chin with her back foot.

 

[Fuzzy Torpedoes]

How long do you think water was not available?

Was she soaking wet or something after it happened? Or was the stress a case of being handled/moved a little, or having you in the pen fixing it?

I do not have a feel for how much stress it takes to *cause* an abortion, except for a study where, to the best of my memory, it was found that if you withhold food, they abort on the 4th day? (fun study huh, but I guess it answered a question).

My experiences with stress *not* causing an abortion are that once I had a late-term sow that I was bathing every few days due to a fungal issue, doing this did not cause an abortion and did not seem to make her deliver early (last bath before the delivery was 2 days earlier). I've transported one to a vet and back while at 58 days. Also, one of the standard breeding practices involves moving late-pregnancy sows to different, individual cages for their deliveries.

Here's an article from a DVM PhD that mentions abortions:
http://www.2ndchance.info/gpreprodprobs.htm

There's apparently a bacterial possibility?

www.cfsph.iastate.edu/FastFacts/pdfs/chlamydiosis_F.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577508/ maybe

The last part of the pregnancy is a big crunch time nutritionally. The nutrition being off is described in lots of veterinary literature as being a cause of abortions. It seems possible that something was deficient in her diet that needed to be there, and if so, a more usual breeding diet would cover it (high-protein high-calcium alfalfa-based pellets formulated for guinea pigs, hay, greens as supplement). As a personal thing, I make a point to not use tall fescue, don't use potentially alkaloid-carrying plants, and don't use fine fescue as a main grass feed.

Fine fescue is a common lawn grass, especially in cooler climates (although tall fescue can be used, too). I feel like it could be worthwhile to determine just what kind of grass she was getting large quantities of.

I've read that most livestock refuse to eat fine fescue, and it's assumed that it tastes bad to them (but my guinea pigs are happy to gobble it). As a result, there isn't information about using fine fescue as a feed like there is with the other grass types. Fescue is generally known to have alkaloids (at least some of which are not harmful) but I can't seem to get my hands on information about just which alkaloids are in fine fescue. So, on the whole I don't really trust fine fescue.

About how long to wait for next attempt:

An effect of a "breeding break" is larger litters (a study proves this). Larger litters stress sows more (I remember reading this in vet material) and have a very large correlation with stillbirths (a study proves this). But as far as information on the internet goes, there is a situation right now where hobbyist web sites and even some small-animal veterinarians (whose objectivity may be in question) are presenting the idea that extended breaks from breeding, in the absence of a specific medical necessity, are beneficial (I've also seen the word "necessary" used).

If there's a quality study that shows that a "breeding break" in the absence of a specific reason to do so increases the breeding fitness of sows, I have not found it. The mainstream veterinary manuals that are used for teaching that I have access to are not mentioning "breeding breaks" as a beneficial breeding practice. Further, I have it on the word of one of the best small animal vets in Finland that the quality of the nutrition is more meaningful than parking a sow and calling it a break.

If I were to make my own assumptions about what effect a "breeding break" would generally have, I think about potential for obesity developing during the break, with that further developing into a decrease of the overall physical fitness, and then when you stack that into the larger litter she'll be getting because of the break, it sounds like ass. But to know for sure would require a proper study.

But!! having said all that, Pocket did just have a late-term abortion, In my experience, that's *not* a thing that just happens (contrary to what you may read around the 'net from hobbyists). In my experience it means something went wrong. But my experience has always been from within a more standard nutrition situation - includes pellets you may not even be able to source in USA (23% protein + high calcium), hay, greens as supplement (not the main feed), + red pepper as supplement.

I can't judge what caused that abortion specifically but my suggestion for Pocket would be a visit to a small animal vet to get a professional evaluation of her current health, then moving her to a more standard breeding diet, and then you decide where to go from there.

It's worth noting that the quality of a vet's specific advice about breeding will depend upon how objective the vet is. Small animal vets are not that easy to find though, so you may not have a choice in who you use. Some of the objective ones here are associated with the local university. They are professors there + practice out of the university's clinic, and at least one of them is a published researcher and specialist who travels to teach and so on.

 

[Bug n Flock]

I picked up a 50 lb bag of Blue Seal Show Hutch Deluxe. It is 17% protein, 3% fat, and 15% fiber. It was the highest protein feed I could find, figure what the heck I'll try changing the feed to see if it makes a difference. Although I do intend to keep my feed proportions roughly the same for now (hay vs greens vs pellets amounts, I mean).

She was not soaking wet, but it is a large cage and a stressfull process to do a total deep clean. Also I put down a sheet of corrugated plastic under the shavings and over the plywood to give the wood a bit more protection, so that was a big change that could have stressed her out while I was fitting and installing it.

Posted from mobile, thus any typos and such

 

[Hardwarehank]

Sorry I have been quiet for a bit, been real busy with the garden and other projects lately. I want to expressly thank @Fuzzy Torpedoes for offering up their perspective and experience breeding professionally.

So sorry to hear how Pocket's last litter ended up @Bug n Flock. Hopefully it was some type of freak accident/occurrence that caused it and not something insidious. For what it's worth I don't feed a commercial diet myself instead offering rolled oats, barley and BOSS(largely ignored but my one bachelor named Squirrel loves them) in a feeder instead. I also don't supplement vitamin c rather choosing to supply it in the vegetables/weeds I give them. I apologize in advance for the long post about to come up but had a bit of excitement last night I would like to share.

I went to go and move the guinea pig tractors last night(in the dark now that the sun keeps setting earlier and earlier). When I went to go move Moose's herd after moving the tractor an inch or so and checking to make sure I wasn't crushing anyone's legs from the movement I noticed one of my sows in the opposite corner with an extra set of ears growing from her butt. Well that made me stop everything I was doing.

I went over to her and moved her to find there were 5 pups under her and a small red kidney looking thing off to the side which I assume was the placenta. Not sure how long she was giving birth for before I showed up as the site was still a bloody wet mess and all of the pup's coats were moist with one visibly shivering.

Unfortunately one of them was likely dead before I noticed that there was a birthing so I can't say what the cause was. Could have been hypothermia since it was a bit chilly last night as I could see my breath. I thought I had seen it open and close it's eyes but it could have been someone crawling over it's face and nudging the eyelids while I wasn't looking so I thought maybe I could try reviving it. It felt so limp when I went to pick it up and it almost seemed like it was deflated or squashed. Maybe that's just how they feel when they're already dead, not sure(this being my first actual litter). Couldn't see anything wrong with it physically other than the limpness and deflatedness, no amniotic sac apparent. I brought it inside and tried to warm it up but wasn't too hopeful, ended up calling it not long after.

These are to be Minnesota bred guinea pigs that I would like to remain outside of the house but even so I debated on bringing the remaining 4 inside with their mother for the night but eventually decided against it. What helped my decision was seeing the mother sow laying next to her pups providing her warmth. I figured they would be fine for the night with some help. I gave them their own hut(overturned dishtub with a hole cut in one side) threw in a half dozen old socks and shored up the entrance with some hay for extra insulation/protection from drafts. Moose seemed adamant on getting into that hut and I considered removing him from the enclosure but I wonder if he was just showing some paternal instinct? So I let him be since the sow wasn't chasing him off and there wasn't any real ruckus going on. The extra heat wouldn't hurt either. Maybe @Fuzzy Torpedoes could provide some insight there.

Went to check on them this morning before work and everyone seems to be well. Mom and dad were out and about and when I went to lift the hut to check on the pups they all appeared to be alive and well laying on top of the socks. I'll take some pictures to share when I get home and check up on them.

 

[Fuzzy Torpedoes]

Unfortunately one of them was likely dead before I noticed that there was a birthing so I can't say what the cause was. Could have been hypothermia since it was a bit chilly last night as I could see my breath

These are to be Minnesota bred guinea pigs

Please see environmental requirements here: https://grants.nih.gov/grants/olaw/Guide-for-the-Care-and-use-of-laboratory-animals.pdf . (temp is 68F minimum, 79F maximum).

Guinea pigs are a domesticated species (Cavia porcellus) from South America with no wild animal equivalent. The closest wild animal genetically is Cavia tschudii. Cavia tschudii is different enough that it's chromosomes are arranged differently (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137285/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137285/figure/F1/ ).

There's no possibility of Minnesota-bred guinea-pig-anything that will change their environmental needs. They're not hardy in this way. Too-low temperatures would be expected to translate into dead babies and given enough time, sickness and death in everything.

They are notable for being prone to upper respiratory infections. If someone stresses them with cold temperatures, that's a main thing I would expect them to die from.

In cool weather I do not even open the window in this place if there isn't a thermometer hanging on one of the cages on the window side of the room.

Immediately - you'll want to arrange housing for them that has the correct temperature, whatever that may take.

there were 5 pups

one of them was likely dead before I noticed

Larger litters have a significant increase in stillbirths (a study proves this). 2-4 is within the normal litter size, 5+ means large. Your dead one in the litter of 5 corresponds with my own experience with this. The only litter of 5 I have seen here had a stillbirth, it was the last baby to come out and it also weighed the least. The live ones ranged 86g - 91g, and the dead one was 68g. I could not revive it. It's worth noting in this context that there is a correlation between the increased size of the litter and the length of time beforehand that the sow was not pregnant (proven in a study). In other words, forced "breeding breaks" can be expected to translate into larger litters.

all of the pup's coats were moist with one visibly shivering.

Babies here are born in 76F - 77F room temperature and I've never seen one shiver. Going forward, it would be ideal for your environment to be set up such that the babies cannot get that cold when they are born.

a small red kidney looking thing off to the side which I assume was the placenta

There is one placenta for each baby. So far in births here, the placentas don't start coming out until all the babies are out. Often the mother eats the placentas but it does not seem essential to her health that she do that. If fewer placentas come out than babies, it means that one (at least) is still inside. I've never had that happen but have read that if it does, it's a medical emergency.

Moose seemed adamant on getting into that hut and I considered removing him from the enclosure but I wonder if he was just showing some paternal instinct?

Your sow was in post-partum estrus. Males always realize when this is the case and your male was trying to get to her so he could cover her. She'll try to get to him as well as him trying to get to her.

Went to check on them this morning before work and everyone seems to be well. Mom and dad were out and about

Yep. He got her. I have read that the majority of postpartum matings do result in a pregnancy.

I don't feed a commercial diet myself instead offering rolled oats, barley and BOSS(largely ignored but my one bachelor named Squirrel loves them) in a feeder instead

They have certain nutritional requirements, especially while pregnant - calcium, protein, and so on. The commercial guinea pig breeding pellets I'm seeing provide between 19.5% - 23% protein, with high fat and good calcium amounts. Also their gut requires fiber, such as from grass and hay, to work right. I don't know for sure what effects the feeding you're describing are likely to have, but I encourage you to roll with a breeding-formulation guinea pig pellet instead.

Don't trust what the hobbyists may be doing in terms of feeding. They aren't doing the same thing you are with their animals. To get the job done without having the problems they do, you'll need to do better than them - more like the professionals who raise these. Doesn't matter that the sentiment among hobbyists right now is that they are the kings, queens, and Gods of guinea pig care. That's in their heads and nowhere else.

 

[Hardwarehank]

Please see environmental requirements here: https://grants.nih.gov/grants/olaw/Guide-for-the-Care-and-use-of-laboratory-animals.pdf . (temp is 68F minimum, 79F maximum).

Guinea pigs are a domesticated species (Cavia porcellus) from South America with no wild animal equivalent. The closest wild animal genetically is Cavia tschudii. Cavia tschudii is different enough that it's chromosomes are arranged differently (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137285/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137285/figure/F1/ ).

There's no possibility of Minnesota-bred guinea-pig-anything that will change their environmental needs. They're not hardy in this way. Too-low temperatures would be expected to translate into dead babies and given enough time, sickness and death in everything.

They are notable for being prone to upper respiratory infections. If someone stresses them with cold temperatures, that's a main thing I would expect them to die from.

In cool weather I do not even open the window in this place if there isn't a thermometer hanging on one of the cages on the window side of the room.

Immediately - you'll want to arrange housing for them that has the correct temperature, whatever that may take.

Respectfully, the attached pdf doesn't hold much weight with me. The recommended temperature range is for guinea pigs and other rodents, including rats and mice which exist outdoors in localities with below zero winters. I repeat, these are recommended generalized temperatures. To drive the point further, in the same table(3.1 on page 44) they have recommended temperatures for keeping farm animals and poultry at 61-81F. If protected from wet and windy conditions chickens are able to spend all winter below freezing, a far cry from 61-81F.

I'm not trying to argue that guinea pigs are as hardy as rats or chickens but they can certainly survive and even thrive at temperatures below the recommended range with the proper shelter. To illustrate that point check out this Youtube video of a Georgian breeder who keeps his outdoors in pens. Average temperatures during the coldest parts of winter in Georgia are from 62-39F on the southern end to 51-35F on the northern end. Keep in mind that these are averages and don't account for extremes. https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/atlanta/georgia/united-states/usga0028.

Last night's experience did make me realize that I need more hiding places in each of the enclosures as I think that's the main reason this sow had her babies in the open air in a corner away from everyone else. Generally the two sows and one boar co-habitate fine in the one tub and I have an igloo out there just in case but perhaps the igloo wasn't big enough and the other sow may have bullied her out of the bigger tub.

I have plans to move all of the guinea pigs into my garage in the coming weeks they will not be staying in their tractors outside for the winter. The garage is attached to the house and insulated with a natural gas heater if needed. To help protect against the ambient temperatures in the garage I'm looking into creating huts out of foam coolers with a cloth flap on the entrance and generous amounts of bedding inside.

They have certain nutritional requirements, especially while pregnant - calcium, protein, and so on. The commercial guinea pig breeding pellets I'm seeing provide between 19.5% - 23% protein, with high fat and good calcium amounts. Also their gut requires fiber, such as from grass and hay, to work right. I don't know for sure what effects the feeding you're describing are likely to have, but I encourage you to roll with a breeding-formulation guinea pig pellet instead.

Don't trust what the hobbyists may be doing in terms of feeding. They aren't doing the same thing you are with their animals. To get the job done without having the problems they do, you'll need to do better than them - more like the professionals who raise these. Doesn't matter that the sentiment among hobbyists right now is that they are the kings, queens, and Gods of guinea pig care. That's in their heads and nowhere else.

With regards to feeding. I have my guinea pigs out on "pasture" keeping my backyard trimmed and eating any sprouts that come up from spilled feed. In addition they have free access to an organic Timothy/Orchard Grass/Alfalfa blend hay. They have free access to the grain/seed mix that I mentioned earlier. Every day they get varied fresh vegetables/weeds. Generally whatever scraps are in abundance and pluckings of weeds from around the yard. The list includes:

Dandelion
Dock
Chicory
Crabgrass
Strawberry leaves
Plantain
Lamb's Quarters
Carrots incl. tops
Sunflower sprouts
Barley sprouts
Mulberry leaves
Pear leaves
Tomatoes
Cilantro
Parsley
Bell Pepper
Canteloupe incl. rind
Watermelon incl. rind
Swiss Chard
Kale
Lettuce
Cucumbers
Bananas incl. peel
Corn incl. leaves and shucks
Peas incl. shell

I'm not completely averse to the idea of a pellet feed but when I look at the ingredients lists on many offerings there's so many offensive ingredients and the cost/benefit is so poor that I prefer to just diy and feed the constituent parts.

As a corollary, in the rabbit breeding world there are many breeders who insist that the only way to raise rabbits is to feed them a pellet diet and hay yet there are many people who are successful feeding a "natural" diet that when done correctly is replete with all of the nutrition that a rabbit needs. While more work and possibility of nutrient deficiencies can occur if implemented incorrectly, this method resonates more with me and is how I intend to raise my breeding stock.

I care for the well-being of these animals and I appreciate that you do as well. I want this project to succeed but if it turns out it's not working for me or the animals I will end up rehoming all of them.

 

[Hardwarehank]

Got home earlier today to check up on the pups and all still doing well and sprightly. They're all bedded down now with their mom in a hut laying on top of some old sweats.

Here's a group shot of the pups in an upturned tub hanging out while I move their tractor.

Mom and the pups in the tub after moving to a fresh patch of grass.

Mom next to Moose. Her appetite is good. She was first in line for fresh veggies. Oddly enough her sister who was introduced to Moose at the same time as her didn't end up pregnant. Don't know if it's because she's sterile or maybe she's too standoffish and won't accept Moose? Not sure how guinea pig attraction works out but I'm considering moving her to another boar here soon and if that doesn't take then off she goes.

 

[Bug n Flock]

Respectfully, the attached pdf doesn't hold much weight with me. The recommended temperature range is for guinea pigs and other rodents, including rats and mice which exist outdoors in localities with below zero winters. I repeat, these are recommended generalized temperatures. To drive the point further, in the same table(3.1 on page 44) they have recommended temperatures for keeping farm animals and poultry at 61-81F. If protected from wet and windy conditions chickens are able to spend all winter below freezing, a far cry from 61-81F.

I'm not trying to argue that guinea pigs are as hardy as rats or chickens but they can certainly survive and even thrive at temperatures below the recommended range with the proper shelter. To illustrate that point check out this Youtube video of a Georgian breeder who keeps his outdoors in pens. Average temperatures during the coldest parts of winter in Georgia are from 62-39F on the southern end to 51-35F on the northern end. Keep in mind that these are averages and don't account for extremes. https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/atlanta/georgia/united-states/usga0028.

Last night's experience did make me realize that I need more hiding places in each of the enclosures as I think that's the main reason this sow had her babies in the open air in a corner away from everyone else. Generally the two sows and one boar co-habitate fine in the one tub and I have an igloo out there just in case but perhaps the igloo wasn't big enough and the other sow may have bullied her out of the bigger tub.

I have plans to move all of the guinea pigs into my garage in the coming weeks they will not be staying in their tractors outside for the winter. The garage is attached to the house and insulated with a natural gas heater if needed. To help protect against the ambient temperatures in the garage I'm looking into creating huts out of foam coolers with a cloth flap on the entrance and generous amounts of bedding inside.



With regards to feeding. I have my guinea pigs out on "pasture" keeping my backyard trimmed and eating any sprouts that come up from spilled feed. In addition they have free access to an organic Timothy/Orchard Grass/Alfalfa blend hay. They have free access to the grain/seed mix that I mentioned earlier. Every day they get varied fresh vegetables/weeds. Generally whatever scraps are in abundance and pluckings of weeds from around the yard. The list includes:

Dandelion
Dock
Chicory
Crabgrass
Strawberry leaves
Plantain
Lamb's Quarters
Carrots incl. tops
Sunflower sprouts
Barley sprouts
Mulberry leaves
Pear leaves
Tomatoes
Cilantro
Parsley
Bell Pepper
Canteloupe incl. rind
Watermelon incl. rind
Swiss Chard
Kale
Lettuce
Cucumbers
Bananas incl. peel
Corn incl. leaves and shucks
Peas incl. shell

I'm not completely averse to the idea of a pellet feed but when I look at the ingredients lists on many offerings there's so many offensive ingredients and the cost/benefit is so poor that I prefer to just diy and feed the constituent parts.

As a corollary, in the rabbit breeding world there are many breeders who insist that the only way to raise rabbits is to feed them a pellet diet and hay yet there are many people who are successful feeding a "natural" diet that when done correctly is replete with all of the nutrition that a rabbit needs. While more work and possibility of nutrient deficiencies can occur if implemented incorrectly, this method resonates more with me and is how I intend to raise my breeding stock.

I care for the well-being of these animals and I appreciate that you do as well. I want this project to succeed but if it turns out it's not working for me or the animals I will end up rehoming all of them.

Preach.

We are not doing ill by these animals by doing things differently than you folks on the pet side of keeping them. Also, animals can 100% absolutely become hardy to an area if protected and responsibly shepherded over time. This is well documented in animal and plant husbandry. I mean, we keep African desert critters here in Zone 7 at the National zoo. There is even a zebra breeder just a few miles from here.... Plenty other examples but that one is the most dramatic I can offhand come up with.