Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[BGMatt]

There we go. Three cock(erel)s is a minimum. Four is my bottom-line, too. It gives you the ability to move things about more fluidly. I have one mentor who keeps a minimum of 4 breeding pens, one might be a pair the other a trio, but their pedigreed by clan and paired responsibly. So, yes, to Maggiesdad and BGMatt. I'd keep 4 (I'll sometimes say three not to intimidate those who are afraid of "too many" cocks); four is my personal happy place. I prefer small groupings. As Maggiesdag intimated, there's an old expression, "More chicks from fewer hens". The great thing about doing controlled clans is it gives you a clear sense of genetic stability and diversity in a nevertheless effective breeding environment.

If I'm following this system in a particular breed I always keep a minimum of 4 males as well, although I drastically prefer to have at least one back up for each, although if you're running 4 matings in this type of set up, even if you lost one male you'd still be in a good place. I also view this as just a base. If you take what I posted and follow just it, with good selection practices you'll be fine. There's so many ways you can go with it too. If one breeding in a particular year is spectacular results wise, rather than replacing breeders and rotating birds around, I'll just repeat that pen and maybe swap some of the others around. Working with Blue or other incompletely dominant and/or recessive genes? Lavender splits? Either keep extra breeders from same clan Like in my example if I've got a Blue colored male from Red Clan, but the pen of females he's scheduled to go into is all Black and I want more blue colored birds, It would be nice if I had a Splash male that was also Red Clan (but otherwise near identical in quality) that I could rotate in to get more Blue colored birds. Depending on demand and availability I might run pairs, or might run quads in pens. I prefer not going any larger then that myself. For instance in my Langshans next year I have three clan pens set up (will expand out to a fourth for 2015) Pen A is a Black Cockerel over three Black Pullets and and Black Hen, Pen B is a White Cock over 3 White Pullets and a White Hen, Pen C is a Black Cock and a White Cock rotating over 2 Blue pullets and a Splash Pullet. I just did not end up with a Blue cockerel I liked, or a fourth Blue/Splash female for pen C, so it's a different makeup then the others. My Buff Leghorns have 4 matings, none of which have more than two pullets. Super flexible but the base structure of the plan doesn't change.

 

[mamashomestead]

Hi! I ve been following for a good bit and I love all the informative post!! All of you seem to know what you are talking about kudos!

I have a beautiful black copper marans roo with a lavender Orpington hen ( his one and only choice as he's not so nice to the others) Right now she is laying like crazy. I have been thinking of collecting and setting her eggs. How would the copper coloring be passed down to the offspring? I ve read that it will turn yellow. Is there anyway to breed in the copper?

 

[BGMatt]

Hi! I ve been following for a good bit and I love all the informative post!! All of you seem to know what you are talking about

kudos!

I have a beautiful black copper marans roo with a lavender Orpington hen ( his one and only choice as he's not so nice to the others) Right now she is laying like crazy. I have been thinking of collecting and setting her eggs. How would the copper coloring be passed down to the offspring? I ve read that it will turn yellow. Is there anyway to breed in the copper?

I would advise not crossing breeds like this. (This is one of the Heritage breed threads after all and part of that definition is actual Standard breeds, not crossbreds).

However, that being said with the Lavender gene it will dilute the red to a creamy yellow color (see also porcelain, Isabella, etc), but it's recessive, so your F1's will all end up Black with red leakage in the hackle and maybe saddle of males. Half of them would be split to lavender, meaning if you bred them back to a lavender bird you'd get 50% lavender (in this case possibly with minor amounts of red/diluted red leakage) and 50% black (again, probably with minor amounts of leakage) split to lavender, if you breed the f1's together you'd end up with more red/diluted red (I'm sure there's a technical term for it, can't recall right now) in the offspring, of which 25% would be lavender, 25% would be Black and 50% would be split. If you went back to the Black Copper parent you'd get your best "Black Copper" color, but you'd end up with 50% Black and 50% Black split to lavender.

 

[mamashomestead]

Thank you so much!!!! I did not plan on cross breeding when I got him sorry for asking I could not get an answer anywheres and I could not cull him so he's off at my brothers with this hen. You answered so quickly! Thanks again!

 

[BGMatt]

Thank you so much!!!! I did not plan on cross breeding when I got him sorry for asking I could not get an answer anywheres and I could not cull him so he's off at my brothers with this hen. You answered so quickly! Thanks again!

No prob, color genetics are fun.

 

[mamashomestead]

I love my copper marans and cayugas but things don't always go to plan smh!

 

[Rhinoman]

Maggiesdad is right, I did misunderstand. A light bulb just went on in my head. Not four roosters per pen, common sense.They'll kill each other! Not 36 hens either. I'll put one rooster in with two sister hens per breeding pen. Four pens will means I keep four roosters, might as well keep a brother to each (back up) in the four pens for the cockerels that would otherwise be empty at this time. I'd keep 8 breeding hens two for each clan and the runners up go in the laying coop; spares. I'm breeding 12 chickens out of 150+. Once things get going that is.

 

[Lacy Blues]

In the breeding system he is talking about that's not that many at all. You use 3-4 different clans and rotate the males each year, it allows you to maintain genetic diversity and a closed flock. Let me copy and paste a simplified version.
----------------------
Basics of Rotational Line Breeding in chickens

Using this method you can indefinitely breed a line of chickens without introducing new blood.

You need 4 "clans" minimum, for simplicity sake here I will assign each one a color: Red, Blue, White, Green. Each clan needs at least one male, and anywhere from one to ten hens depending on your needs. It is nice to have a back-up male of each clan in case of illness or other unexpected loss, but not needed.

Mark your birds with colored leg bands and when it's time to breed and hatch divide them by color for year one. Red male with Red Female, Blue with Blue and so on and so on. When the chicks hatch, find a way to mark them so you know what "clan" they came from. (nail polish works on chicks and then colored leg bands as they get older)

Year two, pick your best breeders that have the qualities you want (this is another discussion) and put the hens in their pens. Now put the Red males in the with the Blue hens, the Blue Males in with the White hens, and the White Males in with the Green Hens, Green males in with Red hens. Mark the chicks with the "clan" color of the hens.

Year three, select your breeders. Red males go with White hens, Blue males with Green Hens, White males with Red hens, Green males with Blue hens.
Again, mark the offspring with the color of the hens.

Repeat this every year, always moving the males one pen down the line, and always marking the chicks with the "clan" color of the hens.

-----------------

So as you can see, between however many females per pen, and any backups you want to keep in case something happens, it adds up pretty fast. Most that use this method start with smaller numbers (or even less pens) eventually filling them out. I'm moving this direction with my Spangled Old English, with having two trios and a third pen with just pullets, next year I will add a male and another pen of pullets, the following year I will have four full pens, and continue down the path with this method.

I'd like to hear this other discussion expanded upon. In regard to choosing birds for the qualities that you want to see more of in your birds, if you have several females and a male or two showing these traits, would you band them all red? My question being this... if you have lots of birds, each individually showing traits you want to keep, and the goal is to combine all these traits, do you set up each clan with the different traits you're looking to achieve? The best way to do things is by breeding for traits instead of maintaining families?

Also, do you think it is important to wait until the bird is in it's second year before using to breed from, so you know what you have?

If I'm following this system in a particular breed I always keep a minimum of 4 males as well, although I drastically prefer to have at least one back up for each, although if you're running 4 matings in this type of set up, even if you lost one male you'd still be in a good place. I also view this as just a base. If you take what I posted and follow just it, with good selection practices you'll be fine. There's so many ways you can go with it too. If one breeding in a particular year is spectacular results wise, rather than replacing breeders and rotating birds around, I'll just repeat that pen and maybe swap some of the others around. Working with Blue or other incompletely dominant and/or recessive genes? Lavender splits? Either keep extra breeders from same clan Like in my example if I've got a Blue colored male from Red Clan, but the pen of females he's scheduled to go into is all Black and I want more blue colored birds, It would be nice if I had a Splash male that was also Red Clan (but otherwise near identical in quality) that I could rotate in to get more Blue colored birds. Depending on demand and availability I might run pairs, or might run quads in pens. I prefer not going any larger then that myself. For instance in my Langshans next year I have three clan pens set up (will expand out to a fourth for 2015) Pen A is a Black Cockerel over three Black Pullets and and Black Hen, Pen B is a White Cock over 3 White Pullets and a White Hen, Pen C is a Black Cock and a White Cock rotating over 2 Blue pullets and a Splash Pullet. I just did not end up with a Blue cockerel I liked, or a fourth Blue/Splash female for pen C, so it's a different makeup then the others. My Buff Leghorns have 4 matings, none of which have more than two pullets. Super flexible but the base structure of the plan doesn't change.

In the event something like this happens, is this one of those situations where you would put that clan with another male for a short time, toss the eggs, and then put the intended male in there instead? I've been thinking about this lately. Dragonlady does this with her Orps. Once she finds a fantastic breeding, she sticks with it but because the female's body (and I don't recall the name of the process) basically rejects the male and so the resultant chicks from the same fantastic cross, with no other rooster between, are less than desirable. Do you practice this type of mating?

Do you also trap nest within the clan so you know exactly what each pullet/hen is producing or just do clan matings?

You select matings of 3 pullets and one hen... is there a process you use to select which hen to keep rather than replace her with a pullet?

 

[BGMatt]

I'd like to hear this other discussion expanded upon. In regard to choosing birds for the qualities that you want to see more of in your birds, if you have several females and a male or two showing these traits, would you band them all red? My question being this... if you have lots of birds, each individually showing traits you want to keep, and the goal is to combine all these traits, do you set up each clan with the different traits you're looking to achieve? The best way to do things is by breeding for traits instead of maintaining families?

Also, do you think it is important to wait until the bird is in it's second year before using to breed from, so you know what you have?

In the event something like this happens, is this one of those situations where you would put that clan with another male for a short time, toss the eggs, and then put the intended male in there instead? I've been thinking about this lately. Dragonlady does this with her Orps. Once she finds a fantastic breeding, she sticks with it but because the female's body (and I don't recall the name of the process) basically rejects the male and so the resultant chicks from the same fantastic cross, with no other rooster between, are less than desirable. Do you practice this type of mating?

Do you also trap nest within the clan so you know exactly what each pullet/hen is producing or just do clan matings?

You select matings of 3 pullets and one hen... is there a process you use to select which hen to keep rather than replace her with a pullet?

The short article I posted is just basic principle, you can adapt it to whatever qualities you personally want to see. I have a selection process I go through, simplified it is 1. Vigor and growth rate 2. Type 3. Production Qualities 4. Color. I have no problem keeping extra birds, but my breeders are selected to compliment each other. If one bird is lacking a bit in chest for example and outstanding in tail, I will not pair them with a bird that has a weak chest, even if they have an exceptional everything else. This goes on in each clan. For instance EVERY chick hatched from the Red Clan would be banded with a red band, and culled/selected against it's own clan only. I will say that this style of breeding works best for people who intend to maintain a closed flock, or are in a rare breed. otherwise yes you could probably make faster improvements with other methods (for instance in a popular color of Old English Game I might use a different method), It is also really good at maintaining an even level of quality throughout flock. I would, if space allowed, prefer to breed from older birds yes. When first starting with a line or trying to establish it you might like the speed of using younger birds (of course with my Langshans rate of growth is one of the first things I want to improve because they're basically 10 month or more when ready anyway)

In the event I got that really awesome pairing I would just leave everything in stasis. Let's say it was a year that my Red Clan males were in with my Green Clan females, I would repeat the exact pairing (including the same birds) the following year. The following year I might make changes based on age of birds, or having multiple superior birds from those clans.

I do not trap nest, but I do keep records of which birds are in the pen that year (every bird has two bands, one solid color for clan and one numbered band for individual ID.) Egg laying qualities I rely on the Hogan method.

In the Langshan breedings that I shared I am keeping the Hens because I want to produce more offspring this coming year. I have multiple reasons for doing so, primarily because I want to get more of them out there in the Pacific Northwest, so I need birds to sell cheaply, to donate to 4H clubs and breeder auctions, etc. Otherwise I would use complimentary mating to make my selections. Like Mr. Blosl would always say there's Breeding 101 (the article I posted with no variables) and then there's Breeding 103 Breeding 405 etc. I am still following the basic structure, but will supplement it as needed.

That paragraph was clunky, let me try again. If a bird is in the pen it's because I think it will be a complimentary mating. The number of females I put in the pen is not a factor of age, it's based on how many I want to get out. For instance, if I'm successful spreading Langshans around the Northwest, I'd probably cut down to pairs and trios, because I wouldn't need to produce as many offspring to distribute. In 5 years when my line has been through one complete revolution of clans, the line should be very set and I won't need to hatch as many for myself to continue improving.

The reason I will follow this structure is because I would rather not be constantly importing birds into my lines once they are set. Rotating through this kind of structure insures a good blending of the lines I'm combining, sets traits, and keeps genetic diversity. If I build my lines and program on this foundation, I won't have to seek out what are some fairly rare varieties and breeds. All three breeds will benefit from this, and I won't get stuck.

After this year and a lot of thought I'm doing one other thing that most people probably don't do. I'm going on a strict calendar (well, will be headed that way anyway). All Large Fowl for personal use are to be hatched Jan-Feb (This year will include March due to late hatches which I don't want to repeat) Bantams for personal use and supplemental Large Fowl (In case I need more splash, or Blue, or whatever) will be hatched in March and April. This will allow me to still sell chicks and eggs if demand is there, and have everything I want to select and cull from mature at the right times for winter laying and show season in the Northwest.

Wow that was long winded. I'm bad at this but wanted to share what I'm doing and maybe someone can learn from it. Or not.

Edit: Please ask if you want me to clarify anything.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Thank you Matt for that "long-winded" reply. I don't think it was long-winded though. You just explain things very well and that is what I need. So many people have been in this for so long that they assume that everybody else knows exactly what they mean as they speed over a subject or course of events.

I will be taking notes on this so if there are some other long time breeders that would like to chime in on this discussion, I wouldn't mind at all, in fact, I'd really appreciate it.