Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[bnjrob]

Very sweet of you to take up for me---I think this may be too cumbersome for this thread.

Thank you though
M

I think we just need to get you thinking some more to make it easier to narrow down your goals and get you thinking of more detailed questions that can help elicit more detailed answers. It's hard to know what you don't know sometimes and then trying to figure out what you want when you don't know what you need to know - and then to try and ask questions...that's why even "vague" responses can actually help you sort things out and narrow things down.

It seems a lot harder to answer people's questions like this especially when they stress meat production but aren't interested in the modern meat birds. So many people don't know what to expect from a "heritage" bird, so they are not taking into account the differences between the slower maturing standard bred birds and the meat hybrids.

It might help if we knew what breeds you think you don't want - and what turned you off of them.

Some breeds need more work than others too, because not all standard bred birds have been kept and worked on much over the years. Like our Javas - so few people kept them during the 20th century that as a whole, they need more work to be closer to the SOP than other breeds that had more breeders caring for them. So that is something to take into consideration as you are looking at breed choices. Are you ok with birds that need more breeding work to be closer to the SOP or would you prefer them to be close to SOP immediately?

Do you want heavily breasted birds or are you ok with more leg meat?

How fast do you want them to mature - "heritage" birds are slower to mature, although you can start selecting for the faster maturing birds in your flock when you see some grow out faster than others.


Start thinking some more and giving us more thoughts so we can better help you.

 

[LindaB220]

Hey southernmomma

The reason there are so many varieties to choose from is that people are different, and locales are different. It's up to you to know which one tickles the cockles of your heart... the breed that looks so good to you that you could spend two hours of an evening just watching them range. I know - it's better than television!

You may or may not be able to find what you want that will brood you chicks in the right amount at the right time to meet your meat/egg needs. Maybe reconsider the incubation part if you are definitely locked to one breed, not a secondary brooder breed.

I'm starting to know my chosen breed's in and outs now, I know when I want to process and at what size, when to hatch to have pullet eggs through the winter while my hens are off duty. I caponize the cull males that I want to grow out, spatchcock the younguns that I don't want to grow out. The incubator lets me run a smaller flock with my particular breed than I would have to have to hatch naturally. I know now that my breeding plans aren't just - get a grand trio and blammo I'm a chicken man, but instead thoughtful and learned planning that spans years... provided the predators don't clean me out!
It's definitely a journey, not a destination.

Outstanding reasoning Maggiesdad,

I plan to do the same but I'm way in back of you. But that's ok.

Southernmomma, why not try a Dorking. Big sturdy birds with big breasts and small bones. Judged the tastiest chicken. Queen Victoria's favorite. Of course, the growout time will be longer than CX's but not bad and they are extremely broody. That cuts down on the eggs a little but you could breed a darker dorking with a white rock or delaware and get Red Sex Links. And they lay like a bomb.

 

[southernmomma]

Look into Marans, Buckeyes and White Rocks. Big, meaty, has the traits you are looking for, though the WRs will have better laying than the Marans in most cases.

I will- although all the talk about the Marans egg color has turned me off a little, and Buckeyes seem....intense for some reason.

I think we just need to get you thinking some more to make it easier to narrow down your goals and get you thinking of more detailed questions that can help elicit more detailed answers. It's hard to know what you don't know sometimes and then trying to figure out what you want when you don't know what you need to know - and then to try and ask questions...that's why even "vague" responses can actually help you sort things out and narrow things down.

It seems a lot harder to answer people's questions like this especially when they stress meat production but aren't interested in the modern meat birds. So many people don't know what to expect from a "heritage" bird, so they are not taking into account the differences between the slower maturing standard bred birds and the meat hybrids.

It might help if we knew what breeds you think you don't want - and what turned you off of them.

Some breeds need more work than others too, because not all standard bred birds have been kept and worked on much over the years. Like our Javas - so few people kept them during the 20th century that as a whole, they need more work to be closer to the SOP than other breeds that had more breeders caring for them. So that is something to take into consideration as you are looking at breed choices. Are you ok with birds that need more breeding work to be closer to the SOP or would you prefer them to be close to SOP immediately?

Do you want heavily breasted birds or are you ok with more leg meat?

How fast do you want them to mature - "heritage" birds are slower to mature, although you can start selecting for the faster maturing birds in your flock when you see some grow out faster than others.


Start thinking some more and giving us more thoughts so we can better help you.

Okay, let me take a step back then as I do have some ideas of what I'd prefer.
*Single comb- it makes sense as I live in the South.
*I'd prefer an almost equal amount of light/dark meat but don't know if that's possible. If I had to choose one or the other? Breast/white meat.
*yellow or white skinned, either or.
*Breeding/culling would follow the seasons so spring hatch for early fall/fall processing. So at 5/6/7 months I'd appreciate 4-6lbs dressed. ( I have a 3-sectioned coop planned for, among other things, separation of the sexes).
*I think maturation and weight gain are different and I'm unsure of how. I can't speak to that. I would certainly be culling more heavily based on weight versus when egg laying began.
* I'd prefer a breed and variety that was in good shape for type--I'm not prepared to take something the shape of a Leghorn and turn it into a Dorking. I am prepared to make selections based on type and weight and consider shape/width/length/pelvic measurements/etc. I'll not fuss about ticking or bars or saddle color any time soon but will most certainly maintain only a single variety.
* I am partial to what I think is called the black breasted--my favorite being the Red Dorking (the hens are lovely as well).
* I have the room for foraging and would love to see it utilized and will also use them in tilling efforts but also don't want chickens having a mental breakdown and attacking one another if they're cooped for a day (like in an emergency).
* around 150 eggs/year. 200 is too many. (based on my end goal of 4 families consisting of 3 hens/pullets, 2 cock/cockeral)
* in addition to broodiness I'll add that I'm not inclined to do any vent feather trimming.

And that's that. When I see it all in front of me it seems too particular, but perhaps it will help me narrow the field a bit

Thanks again...we all have to start somewhere, sometime
M

 

[southernmomma]

Everyone finds "their" breed and their variety of that breed. Some shift gears as they go along and there's no shame in doing so. Sometimes, one finds a strain of a breed that so stinkin' pleases them that they wouldn't trade anything for them. Sometimes it is just a matter of their temperament that clicks in your own heart and soul

Sometimes it is the breed's mannerisms and silly stuff, like the way they forage or walk or handle themselves that pleases you. We're people. We like art and music and nature and in some breeds, those traits come together in a way that pleases us enough to get up in the freezing cold dark of January to do chores. Motivation comes from passion, a love for the breed and for the birds.

Sometimes it is not just a connection to the heritage of the breed but one's own heritage, a memory of a grandparent who kept the breed and taught you things when you were a child. We're humans and such things leave a mark in us. Maybe it is a memory from walking the poultry house aisles at the county fair and seeing breed that struck your fancy, from whence comes the term, fancy. It is what we fancy.

For me, it is Rocks and Reds. Rocks because I learned Rocks at my grandmother's apron strings in the 1950's. She would not approve of my Reds as my grandfather never permitted a Red bird on his property, but hey, I enjoy them to no end. The Rock is a bit better at meat perhaps, but both lay eggs as well as a breed needs to lay eggs. They are different and each bring a smile to my face. This is too much work not to enjoy it. It needs to be pleasing for it to be rewarding.

This is beautiful. I too wish to be moved by my choice.
M

 

[chamoisee]

This is the thread I needed to see! It will take me a while to read through all of it. I share these goals. Fancy is nice...for someone else! I raise registered dairy goats, and in my herd, hardiness, longevity, production, mothering ability and strong feet and legs are what I breed for. I've just gotten into chickens, and while Chanteclers were my initial goal, finding them has been a challenge, so I ordered Spangled Russian Orloffs, due to arrive in less than 2 weeks. I have been raising other chickens to get experience, didn't want to do my learning curve with ultra rare breeds! The ones I currently have are for egg production rather than maintaining a breed...got the super assortment from Sand Hill, as well as some EE's and bantams from the feed stores here.

Now for the questions.....

The last shipment I got took 2-3 days to get here and some of the chicks were really weak. I want to pay for the express mail even though it's a LOT more. It is worth it to me to get them here alive and strong. I don't know if they get cold or what, but 2-3 days in a box....surprising any of them lived! However, for $9.00 more, I can ship another 25 chicks! I can't order 25 more Orloffs. Already maxed out on that breed unless I get Mahogany Orloffs. But it does seem to me that it would be very worthwhile to get 25 more chicks. 50 of them aren't any harder to raise than 25.

What breed? It needs to be hardy. Our winters are cold (northern Idaho). The White Cochins (large fowl) did really well, alas, they don't seem to have these anymore. Chanteclers are the obvious choice, but they're sold out and I want the *real* Chanteclers, the white ones. I need opinions on other breeds that Sand Hill offers, which are not sold out. My criteria are hardiness, either dual purpose or egg laying (not really into just butchering), disposition (not aggressive or nasty), prefer not to have single combs when possible, but not a deal breaker, and prefer color patterns that aren't "fussy". I have been totally turned off by the emphasis on 1/2" of color on the tip of the feather here, and hackles another color, and breast yet another color, and the tail....ugh! So solid colored or allover patterns are preferable IMHO, or color patterns which are reliable and easy to breed true.

Long term goal is to breed Chanteclers, Orloffs, and perhaps another breed or two, as sustainable homesteading/farming breeds, and to sell hatching eggs to others who would like to preserve these breeds. Am currently considering the following breeds, would appreciate any and all input:

Mahogany Orloffs
Dorkings- especially the rose combed types
Redcaps
Leghorns- especially the Exchequer or Mille Fleur, but open to other types
Cochins- Have been *so* happy with the pair that I have!
Orpingtons- especially the black.

 

[Zanna]

I will- although all the talk about the Marans egg color has turned me off a little, and Buckeyes seem....intense for some reason.

Okay, let me take a step back then as I do have some ideas of what I'd prefer.
*Single comb- it makes sense as I live in the South.
*I'd prefer an almost equal amount of light/dark meat but don't know if that's possible. If I had to choose one or the other? Breast/white meat.
*yellow or white skinned, either or.
*Breeding/culling would follow the seasons so spring hatch for early fall/fall processing. So at 5/6/7 months I'd appreciate 4-6lbs dressed. ( I have a 3-sectioned coop planned for, among other things, separation of the sexes).
*I think maturation and weight gain are different and I'm unsure of how. I can't speak to that. I would certainly be culling more heavily based on weight versus when egg laying began.
* I'd prefer a breed and variety that was in good shape for type--I'm not prepared to take something the shape of a Leghorn and turn it into a Dorking. I am prepared to make selections based on type and weight and consider shape/width/length/pelvic measurements/etc. I'll not fuss about ticking or bars or saddle color any time soon but will most certainly maintain only a single variety.
* I am partial to what I think is called the black breasted--my favorite being the Red Dorking (the hens are lovely as well).
* I have the room for foraging and would love to see it utilized and will also use them in tilling efforts but also don't want chickens having a mental breakdown and attacking one another if they're cooped for a day (like in an emergency).
* around 150 eggs/year. 200 is too many. (based on my end goal of 4 families consisting of 3 hens/pullets, 2 cock/cockeral)
* in addition to broodiness I'll add that I'm not inclined to do any vent feather trimming.

And that's that. When I see it all in front of me it seems too particular, but perhaps it will help me narrow the field a bit

Thanks again...we all have to start somewhere, sometime
M

I raise Marans, New Hampshires and Delawares. All three breeds sound like they fit most of your criteria and they are the only breeds I can really speak to.

Marans: White skin, fast to mature, mine go broody and are typically good Moms, Single comb, not sure what you mean by black breasted but I raise the Black Coppers and they have black breast feathers, good foragers, calm when cooped and lay 4 - 5 large eggs/week depending on the hen. I have been working with them for 6 years now so am pretty familliar with my birds. What was your concern with the egg colour?

New Hampshires: Fairly new to me but I love them. Single comb, Yellow skin. Don't know much about broodiness as I have only had them for two years and this is my first season breeding them. One is broody right now but none went broody last season. Mature fast, Lay 5 - 6 large eggs/week, laid all winter, calm when cooped and great on the range.

Delawares: Now I am working with a new re-created line still in the project stage and they are a little different. My own line which I worked with for five years and no longer have to make room for this new line matured fast, were amazing foragers, 5-6 large eggs/week, laid all through the winter and molt, broody and excellent mothers, fast to mature/large birds, easily cooped or ranged, single comb, yellow skin.

Never had to do any feather/vent trimming on any of these breeds other than plucking a few feathers to remove poop clumps because I just can't stand it

 

[bnjrob]

I will- although all the talk about the Marans egg color has turned me off a little, and Buckeyes seem....intense for some reason.

Okay, let me take a step back then as I do have some ideas of what I'd prefer.
*Single comb- it makes sense as I live in the South.
*I'd prefer an almost equal amount of light/dark meat but don't know if that's possible. If I had to choose one or the other? Breast/white meat.
*yellow or white skinned, either or.
*Breeding/culling would follow the seasons so spring hatch for early fall/fall processing. So at 5/6/7 months I'd appreciate 4-6lbs dressed. ( I have a 3-sectioned coop planned for, among other things, separation of the sexes).
*I think maturation and weight gain are different and I'm unsure of how. I can't speak to that. I would certainly be culling more heavily based on weight versus when egg laying began.
* I'd prefer a breed and variety that was in good shape for type--I'm not prepared to take something the shape of a Leghorn and turn it into a Dorking. I am prepared to make selections based on type and weight and consider shape/width/length/pelvic measurements/etc. I'll not fuss about ticking or bars or saddle color any time soon but will most certainly maintain only a single variety.
* I am partial to what I think is called the black breasted--my favorite being the Red Dorking (the hens are lovely as well).
* I have the room for foraging and would love to see it utilized and will also use them in tilling efforts but also don't want chickens having a mental breakdown and attacking one another if they're cooped for a day (like in an emergency).
* around 150 eggs/year. 200 is too many. (based on my end goal of 4 families consisting of 3 hens/pullets, 2 cock/cockeral)
* in addition to broodiness I'll add that I'm not inclined to do any vent feather trimming.

And that's that. When I see it all in front of me it seems too particular, but perhaps it will help me narrow the field a bit

Thanks again...we all have to start somewhere, sometime
M

Off the top of my head, the Dorking has more breast than some of the other breeds. I think it is the white Dorkings that are the rose combed, the other colors are single combed. Yellow House Farm raises Dorkings for meat to sell and he could give more info on them and how his flock behaves. He would probably know how well kept they have been over the years by breeders and how they do in confinement, since he lives way up north and has more inclement weather to deal with that might keep birds inside more often.

When you're looking at getting the weight on the birds at a particular time - part of that is husbandry and breeding selection too. If you ID your birds as they grow out and choose the faster maturing birds, you'll be able to work that into your flock. We use colored split rings to ID individual birds as they are growing so we can make notes of who is doing what and when.

Also when you segregate them by gender earlier, you can see in improvement in size. I didn't realize how significant this was until we did it last year and was pleased with seeing more birds that were larger than their parents were. Having the males run the females around really does run the weight off of both sexes. This year we segregated even earlier at about 2 months old instead of waiting until 3-4 months old to separate the sexes. The younger cockerels this year are already catching up in size to the ones that are 3 weeks older. Last year it took longer for the younger ones to catch up to the older ones but they had already started getting interested in females before they were segregated and so they were sparring with each other more often than this year's groups. I am sold on segregating the sexes as early as possible for growing them out larger.

Down here, you also have to look at heat as a factor for size since they dont' eat as much when it's hot. Some people have much better luck getting their birds to the desired size by hatching in late fall/winter, since we can get up to 90* in April/May.

Some people keep a few birds around to use as broodies when they want to have birds with certain qualities but those birds don't necessarily go broody. That could be something to keep in mind if you really like a particular breed but aren't having any that are going broody enough. I think some people are keeping game hens and another breed to use to hatch/raise chicks for their main breeding birds. And of course hens don't always go broody when you are wanting to hatch eggs either, so you may have to revisit how using broodies instead of an incubator is working within the overall goals of your flock.

I think you're getting things thought through and narrowed down - keep going.

 

[Beekissed]

Everyone finds "their" breed and their variety of that breed. Some shift gears as they go along and there's no shame in doing so. Sometimes, one finds a strain of a breed that so stinkin' pleases them that they wouldn't trade anything for them. Sometimes it is just a matter of their temperament that clicks in your own heart and soul

Sometimes it is the breed's mannerisms and silly stuff, like the way they forage or walk or handle themselves that pleases you. We're people. We like art and music and nature and in some breeds, those traits come together in a way that pleases us enough to get up in the freezing cold dark of January to do chores. Motivation comes from passion, a love for the breed and for the birds.

Sometimes it is not just a connection to the heritage of the breed but one's own heritage, a memory of a grandparent who kept the breed and taught you things when you were a child. We're humans and such things leave a mark in us. Maybe it is a memory from walking the poultry house aisles at the county fair and seeing breed that struck your fancy, from whence comes the term, fancy. It is what we fancy.

For me, it is Rocks and Reds. Rocks because I learned Rocks at my grandmother's apron strings in the 1950's. She would not approve of my Reds as my grandfather never permitted a Red bird on his property, but hey, I enjoy them to no end. The Rock is a bit better at meat perhaps, but both lay eggs as well as a breed needs to lay eggs. They are different and each bring a smile to my face. This is too much work not to enjoy it. It needs to be pleasing for it to be rewarding.

I agree! Ever since I have had White Rocks they have caught my attention over and over and all other breeds seem to be compared to them in my flocks, so I know now where my heart lies...the Plymouth White Rock. There is just something about them, beyond the obviously wonderful traits they possess, that makes me identify with that breed more than others. I find myself using them as the measuring stick for all other breed~ if that is fair or if it is not, I do not know.

I would also love to possess some heritage line RIRs for the reason Fred stated above....they too have been a reliable old friend from the past and my grandmother had them, as well as my mother, and I have had some moderate success from hatchery reds but I find myself not wanting to have them anymore unless I can have heritage birds....I would rather have what granny had so that I can gauge them fairly, as the hatchery strains have a lot of problems and would kill my love for the breed. Maybe some day I'll get there.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: IT shouldn't be at all cumbersome for this thread. I remember asking such questions and suddenly everyone went from providing specifics to vague reasons about this and that. Ended up taking me two years to get the information I needed. Glad that will not happen here now.

My 2 cents is--- becareful about those that breed only to the SOP. FInd out the order of importance to a breeder. OFten egg laying becomes nearly nonexistant; meat characteristics fade away, growth rate is not addressed. I only found a handful on BYC that I would concider trying primarily as a meat bird.


You might try the Heritage Large Fowl II thread too though.

Mr Reese has good birds acording to Bob Blosl. I have his contact info somewhere if you are interested.

 

[southernmomma]

I raise Marans, New Hampshires and Delawares. All three breeds sound like they fit most of your criteria and they are the only breeds I can really speak to.

Marans: White skin, fast to mature, mine go broody and are typically good Moms, Single comb, not sure what you mean by black breasted but I raise the Black Coppers and they have black breast feathers, good foragers, calm when cooped and lay 4 - 5 large eggs/week depending on the hen. I have been working with them for 6 years now so am pretty familliar with my birds. What was your concern with the egg colour?

I did look at Marans, lovely birds My overall impression was that they were mostly bred for very dark eggs....now mind you I've no idea about the breeders' reputation or if they were hobby breeder etc and it was an impression gained after some general perusing of the variety so perhaps I'm waaay off base. It just threw up some red flags for me

Off the top of my head, the Dorking has more breast than some of the other breeds. I think it is the white Dorkings that are the rose combed, the other colors are single combed. Yellow House Farm raises Dorkings for meat to sell and he could give more info on them and how his flock behaves. He would probably know how well kept they have been over the years by breeders and how they do in confinement, since he lives way up north and has more inclement weather to deal with that might keep birds inside more often.

When you're looking at getting the weight on the birds at a particular time - part of that is husbandry and breeding selection too. If you ID your birds as they grow out and choose the faster maturing birds, you'll be able to work that into your flock. We use colored split rings to ID individual birds as they are growing so we can make notes of who is doing what and when.

Also when you segregate them by gender earlier, you can see in improvement in size. I didn't realize how significant this was until we did it last year and was pleased with seeing more birds that were larger than their parents were. Having the males run the females around really does run the weight off of both sexes. This year we segregated even earlier at about 2 months old instead of waiting until 3-4 months old to separate the sexes. The younger cockerels this year are already catching up in size to the ones that are 3 weeks older. Last year it took longer for the younger ones to catch up to the older ones but they had already started getting interested in females before they were segregated and so they were sparring with each other more often than this year's groups. I am sold on segregating the sexes as early as possible for growing them out larger.

Down here, you also have to look at heat as a factor for size since they dont' eat as much when it's hot. Some people have much better luck getting their birds to the desired size by hatching in late fall/winter, since we can get up to 90* in April/May.

Some people keep a few birds around to use as broodies when they want to have birds with certain qualities but those birds don't necessarily go broody. That could be something to keep in mind if you really like a particular breed but aren't having any that are going broody enough. I think some people are keeping game hens and another breed to use to hatch/raise chicks for their main breeding birds. And of course hens don't always go broody when you are wanting to hatch eggs either, so you may have to revisit how using broodies instead of an incubator is working within the overall goals of your flock.

I think you're getting things thought through and narrowed down - keep going.

The Dorking is my current favorite, specifically the Red variety There is a breeder in Alabama and someone in south Arkansas that may/may not be an option......being able to avoid USPS is a consideration for me and I could drive to either of these places to avoid excessive stress to birds or eggs.
It never occurred to me to breed "off season", lol!! One more thing for my notebook

Cheers,
M