Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[PineTopFarm]

We don't keep cocks separate from hens unless the cock is running the hens around making them crazy trying to mate ALL the time. 

Some of this seems to be breed dependent. My Dorkings are incredibly mellow roosters while my Ameracaunas are more assertive with the hens. My flock free ranges sunrise to sunset and my hens don't seem bothered much by the males. It may be true that my flock isn't meeting it's full potential by letting the hens and cocks range together but it's what works for me in consideration of my goals and resource limitations.
I do appreciate the knowledge shared here and your experience has helped me greatly in my flock management.

 

[Rhinoman]

If one is going to breed standard-bred fowl seriously for food and/or exhibition, one needs to separate cockerels and pullets as soon as they can be sexed. I have everything separated by 6 weeks--8 at the latest. The neither gender will grow up to their genetic potential in a mixed flock.

Disclaimer: I'm just an a newbie to chicken keeping and plan to change my flock over to all heritage Anconas from Joseph. So what I've to written below are questions and speculations not advice to anyone reading this reply!

The thing is if the birds are left together while they may not meet their genetic potential it will not change their genetic potential. Another words one could keep them together and sort through the best birds and breed them and do this for years and one would improve the genetics of their flock if one was smart about selection.

How would a large family keeping birds keep a flock 100 years ago? Would they have separated the males and females? I've read a lot of post suggesting that the heritage breeds were more productive years ago than they are today and we have a long way to go to restore them to their peak productivity.

 

[bnjrob]

Disclaimer: I'm just an a newbie to chicken keeping and plan to change my flock over to all heritage Anconas from Joseph. So what I've to written below are questions and speculations not advice to anyone reading this reply!

The thing is if the birds are left together while they may not meet their genetic potential it will not change their genetic potential. Another words one could keep them together and sort through the best birds and breed them and do this for years and one would improve the genetics of their flock if one was smart about selection.

How would a large family keeping birds keep a flock 100 years ago? Would they have separated the males and females? I've read a lot of post suggesting that the heritage breeds were more productive years ago than they are today and we have a long way to go to restore them to their peak productivity.

Have been discussing this with friends recently - difference between "way-back-when" and today and today's chickens. Particularly their size being smaller now and not necessarily fulfilling their production potential.

No, I don't think that farmers separated their chickens. Poultry fanciers who showed birds did I am sure, but not regular people keeping chickens for food to live on.

But the environment is different now too. Back then, chickens were livestock and treated as such. Chickens had much more room to roam. They had lots of bugs and rodents to eat - whereas we kill all the bugs and rodents these days. Chickens got kitchen scraps and scraps from the family milk cow and the day's butter churnings. Chickens had plenty of manure from other animals to dig through as well as getting grain the other animals dropped from their feed bins. There were grain scraps left in the fields for the chickens to forage. Chickens chose their diet back then, their diet wasn't decided for them by a commercial feed company. Their diet was much more varied because more people raised their own food to feed their family - something relatively few people do now. Some would argue that with today's science, formulated manufactured feed is better. I don't know if I believe that or not since the advent of GMO seeds and research suggesting that today's grains/veggies have less nutrition in them than they once did, as a tradeoff for getting higher harvest yields with less seed.

We keep our chickens a lot differently today. I also don't think that farmers were worrying about trying to conform to an SOP. The biggest, strongest chicken in the barnyard was the one that survived to have offspring. It was the poultry fanciers that set down "the law" and bred chickens to get them all to look a certain way and to have certain qualities like egg and/or meat production. This is what I have been discussing with a friend - if the breeding for conformity to meet the SOP has been responsible (all or in part) for causing a decrease in the size of chickens.

I don't know that people would be able to keep a flock like they did 100 yrs or more ago. People are so far removed from where their food comes from, and they are always trying to stay young and fight death, that I am not sure that people (even me) are ready to completely throw their chickens outside to live as they once did, knowing that there will be a certain level of predation and death until only the strongest, biggest, and smartest chickens in their flock are alive and breeding. So in that case, in order to try to simulate the survival of the fittest cycle, separating males/females in order to get them bigger might be the only way that modern chicken keepers can get their birds to the size they should be, if they are going to keep their chickens in a more "managed" and "protected" manner like we generally prefer to do these days.

Definitely a thought provoking subject.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Love it!!

I am trying to pull together the best of both times. Modern science can be used in beneficial ways or not.

I understand GMO's and that we have created business models in which sustainability is not the goal, profit is. And we have a large population that requires feeding because they do not have the means of prooducing any to all of their own food. Here all the farms are about gone. Mayble a handful left because of the urban sprall from Boston. Fields turned into houses. Houses don't feed us. $350,000 houses. 30-40 on one cow pasture. sigh. Now covered by hot top manacured lawns and pestacides and herbicdes, oh my!

I am trying to be a little funny, because otherwise I would cry.

I have a few acres and abbutt state land that can never be developed. across the strett-- the forest has been cleared and som 45 houses are p lanned though the current economy has put a halt on that. NEar the end of one strett a HUGE house $500,000 went in-- and they buy my eggs.

When people understand that the quality of food is the deciding factor of good health, maybe they will care. FOr now the government food adinistration promotes a food plate that supports high consumption of grains. How silly when all the vegies both low carb and high carb vegies have far more nutrients than the grains which are mostly calories. When talking to a pediatrition of Indian decent I explained that I had switched the food pyramid portions-- 5-7 vegies aday and 3-5 grains aday, he loved that.

I see my chickens as a source of nutritious food for my family. Eggs and meat. WHat they eat becomes a high quality food for me and my family. THe high omega 3's and the betacaratines in the yellow eggs and the yellow fats. Yellow because of the grasses not the yellow food coloring agents in the commercial chickens. I don't need to eat fish and contribute to the over harvesting of the ocean fish because I get the omegas's from eggs and other vegie sources. ( No one ever mentions many vegies have high omega 3)

It is slow progess to get the land producing the food for the chickens. I will never be so self sustaining that I can produce everything on my farm that we need for food, but I can certainly try to see how har I can reasonably get. AND now that I have improved the lives of my animals and my family by doing this. Production will be less, and little or no pay for my work, but what is good health worth . . . .

I love this thread because it isthe only one that addresses home grown foods like chickens for our families, and our communities.

 

[Fentress]

Have been discussing this with friends recently - difference between "way-back-when" and today and today's chickens. Particularly their size being smaller now and not necessarily fulfilling their production potential.

No, I don't think that farmers separated their chickens. Poultry fanciers who showed birds did I am sure, but not regular people keeping chickens for food to live on.

But the environment is different now too. Back then, chickens were livestock and treated as such. Chickens had much more room to roam. They had lots of bugs and rodents to eat - whereas we kill all the bugs and rodents these days. Chickens got kitchen scraps and scraps from the family milk cow and the day's butter churnings. Chickens had plenty of manure from other animals to dig through as well as getting grain the other animals dropped from their feed bins. There were grain scraps left in the fields for the chickens to forage. Chickens chose their diet back then, their diet wasn't decided for them by a commercial feed company. Their diet was much more varied because more people raised their own food to feed their family - something relatively few people do now. Some would argue that with today's science, formulated manufactured feed is better. I don't know if I believe that or not since the advent of GMO seeds and research suggesting that today's grains/veggies have less nutrition in them than they once did, as a tradeoff for getting higher harvest yields with less seed.

We keep our chickens a lot differently today. I also don't think that farmers were worrying about trying to conform to an SOP. The biggest, strongest chicken in the barnyard was the one that survived to have offspring. It was the poultry fanciers that set down "the law" and bred chickens to get them all to look a certain way and to have certain qualities like egg and/or meat production. This is what I have been discussing with a friend - if the breeding for conformity to meet the SOP has been responsible (all or in part) for causing a decrease in the size of chickens.

I don't know that people would be able to keep a flock like they did 100 yrs or more ago. People are so far removed from where their food comes from, and they are always trying to stay young and fight death, that I am not sure that people (even me) are ready to completely throw their chickens outside to live as they once did, knowing that there will be a certain level of predation and death until only the strongest, biggest, and smartest chickens in their flock are alive and breeding. So in that case, in order to try to simulate the survival of the fittest cycle, separating males/females in order to get them bigger might be the only way that modern chicken keepers can get their birds to the size they should be, if they are going to keep their chickens in a more "managed" and "protected" manner like we generally prefer to do these days.

Definitely a thought provoking subject.

Boy, you caught me at just the right time, because I am ready to vent. Finally got an email response back from SandHill Preservation Center, that i got SC RIR from and they stated that they may not lay very well. No numbers attached, but what the heck, a RIR that does not lay! Actually, that is not unheard of. immyjay54 over on the HRIR thread has a great web site. He has collected all of the major strains of RIR and most of them won't lay worth a d#@%. He refuses to breed some of them, good for him! I am interested in how chickens were kept in the early part of the 20th century, not the fanciers, but the farmers! Obviously, the SOP has a lot of value. Bob says to build the house and then paint it. I think it is what the breeders do after the house is built that screws everything up, at least in terms of production.

Back in the day they killed all of the small predators, fox hunts, coon hunts and shot hawks on site. Combined with a good yard dog and the chickens were safe to go where ever they wanted. I highly recommend electro-net fencing. I have yet to loose a bird to a four legged predator. The fencing moves with I move the coops. Hawks are a small problem, but so far its manageable. Unless you have your champion cock bird at risk, OH NO!

 

[catdaddyfro]

Have been discussing this with friends recently - difference between "way-back-when" and today and today's chickens. Particularly their size being smaller now and not necessarily fulfilling their production potential.

No, I don't think that farmers separated their chickens. Poultry fanciers who showed birds did I am sure, but not regular people keeping chickens for food to live on.

But the environment is different now too. Back then, chickens were livestock and treated as such. Chickens had much more room to roam. They had lots of bugs and rodents to eat - whereas we kill all the bugs and rodents these days. Chickens got kitchen scraps and scraps from the family milk cow and the day's butter churnings. Chickens had plenty of manure from other animals to dig through as well as getting grain the other animals dropped from their feed bins. There were grain scraps left in the fields for the chickens to forage. Chickens chose their diet back then, their diet wasn't decided for them by a commercial feed company. Their diet was much more varied because more people raised their own food to feed their family - something relatively few people do now. Some would argue that with today's science, formulated manufactured feed is better. I don't know if I believe that or not since the advent of GMO seeds and research suggesting that today's grains/veggies have less nutrition in them than they once did, as a tradeoff for getting higher harvest yields with less seed.

We keep our chickens a lot differently today. I also don't think that farmers were worrying about trying to conform to an SOP. The biggest, strongest chicken in the barnyard was the one that survived to have offspring. It was the poultry fanciers that set down "the law" and bred chickens to get them all to look a certain way and to have certain qualities like egg and/or meat production. This is what I have been discussing with a friend - if the breeding for conformity to meet the SOP has been responsible (all or in part) for causing a decrease in the size of chickens.

I don't know that people would be able to keep a flock like they did 100 yrs or more ago. People are so far removed from where their food comes from, and they are always trying to stay young and fight death, that I am not sure that people (even me) are ready to completely throw their chickens outside to live as they once did, knowing that there will be a certain level of predation and death until only the strongest, biggest, and smartest chickens in their flock are alive and breeding. So in that case, in order to try to simulate the survival of the fittest cycle, separating males/females in order to get them bigger might be the only way that modern chicken keepers can get their birds to the size they should be, if they are going to keep their chickens in a more "managed" and "protected" manner like we generally prefer to do these days.

Definitely a thought provoking subject.

I like this, too.

I've often said and more so think it, that I was born 100 years too late.

Jeff

 

[catdaddyfro]

Boy, you caught me at just the right time, because I am ready to vent. Finally got an email response back from SandHill Preservation Center, that i got SC RIR from and they stated that they may not lay very well. No numbers attached, but what the heck, a RIR that does not lay! Actually, that is not unheard of. immyjay54 over on the HRIR thread has a great web site. He has collected all of the major strains of RIR and most of them won't lay worth a d#@%. He refuses to breed some of them, good for him! I am interested in how chickens were kept in the early part of the 20th century, not the fanciers, but the farmers! Obviously, the SOP has a lot of value. Bob says to build the house and then paint it. I think it is what the breeders do after the house is built that screws everything up, at least in terms of production.

Back in the day they killed all of the small predators, fox hunts, coon hunts and shot hawks on site. Combined with a good yard dog and the chickens were safe to go where ever they wanted. I highly recommend electro-net fencing. I have yet to loose a bird to a four legged predator. The fencing moves with I move the coops. Hawks are a small problem, but so far its manageable. Unless you have your champion cock bird at risk, OH NO!

Yes and thanks to todays society you can forget most of that just mentioned though and it really bothers the living shizum out of this country boy too, LOL dammit my dogs need to be loosed to protect my stuff those little froo froos dogs are whats needed kept up they can't handle the pressure LOL "then get back under the porch" My dogs wont get into something they can't handle or get out of on their own (civilized society is they're only enemy or my worry)but hey that's a whole nuther pet peeve of mine now back to farming and homesteading folks, just blowin off steam too.
LOL

Jeff

 

[Banriona]

I like this, too.

I've often said and more so think it, that I was born 100 years too late.

Jeff

X2! I do think that the idea of "homesteading" is catching on, even if the number of people that are "true homesteaders" is still significantly lower than it should be. The fact that backyard chicken keeping is on the rise is a testament to that. Part of the problem is that a lot of animals that were traditionally kept even in the 'suburbs' back in the day are no illegal to keep in most towns/cities. That, and each generation seems to get a little bit lazier. :/

 

[bnjrob]

I like this, too.

I've often said and more so think it, that I was born 100 years too late.

Jeff

So good to know that I'm not the only one that thinks this! People look at me crazy when I say that I should have been born in the 1800s.

Have been told that we could survive a zombie apocalypse since we garden, keep chickens, know how to spin fiber into yarn and knit with it, sew, construct buildings, preserve food, etc. - and that kind of thing was normal, everyday life for just about everybody "back then". It's normal to me but most people think we're just weird.

 

[bnjrob]

Boy, you caught me at just the right time, because I am ready to vent. Finally got an email response back from SandHill Preservation Center, that i got SC RIR from and they stated that they may not lay very well. No numbers attached, but what the heck, a RIR that does not lay! Actually, that is not unheard of. immyjay54 over on the HRIR thread has a great web site. He has collected all of the major strains of RIR and most of them won't lay worth a d#@%. He refuses to breed some of them, good for him! I am interested in how chickens were kept in the early part of the 20th century, not the fanciers, but the farmers! Obviously, the SOP has a lot of value. Bob says to build the house and then paint it. I think it is what the breeders do after the house is built that screws everything up, at least in terms of production.

Back in the day they killed all of the small predators, fox hunts, coon hunts and shot hawks on site. Combined with a good yard dog and the chickens were safe to go where ever they wanted. I highly recommend electro-net fencing. I have yet to loose a bird to a four legged predator. The fencing moves with I move the coops. Hawks are a small problem, but so far its manageable. Unless you have your champion cock bird at risk, OH NO!

I wonder what their idea of "laying well" is. For the most part, chickens didn't lay every single day without fail back then like production chickens do now.

Our Javas lay about every other day to every couple of days. Even with just a few of them, it keeps hubby and I in plenty of eggs with some to spare unless we are hatching. And now that this year's pullets are starting to lay, we are going to be drowning in eggs soon.

Was talking to a friend last week and his parents lived on farms as kids, back in the earlier 1900s and they remembered their chickens laying about every other day. When you have a farm with a lot of chickens, you aren't going to notice if your chickens don't lay every day, because you have plenty of chickens laying when others aren't. But we don't tend to keep as many chickens as a farm family that depended on those chickens for food, so that's probably why we notice more if the chickens don't "lay well".

Maybe you should ask them to quantify exactly what their idea of laying well is. They have to have some kind of an idea of number of eggs per year or how often each lays, if they knew enough to tell you that they "don't lay well".