Fermented feed in winter??

[The_Flock]

I ferment scratch but use it as a bedtime treat. I have regular feed out free choice plus they free-range all day.

I'm in Ontario, Canada. There's no free ranging right now with the frozen ground and so much snow. Lol.
I also have layer pellets available for them all day long. They don't eat them very much though. Maybe I'm giving them too much of the fermented feed right now. If I give them less then they'll eat up all of the fermented feed.

 

[The_Flock]

Appropriately disagreeing, I have witnessed for myself while fermenting that the chickens both eat and consume less. And if you believe pickles have benefits, I don't see why FF wouldn't. Fermenting and pickling are similar.

But I understand that there is a wide range of opinions here. If somebody else has had a different experience, that is understandable.

When fermented grains freeze, it sort of "breaks" the ferment. Maybe it would help if you could get the chickens to eat all the feed in 10-20 minutes?

Ya...I thought the freezing would mess up the enzymes and such. Thank you.
I think that's a good idea to feed only the amount they can eat in that short time. Then they can eat the layer pellets the rest of the time. Or I can feed them a few times a day. Whatever works will be done. Lol.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Thank you so much for this info. I've already taken a look at the link you shared and there's so much info there. I'm gonna take my chances with fermenting, for now and see how things go.
I've been keeping the feed covered with water and feeding after 24hrs. If there is no water above the feed then I add more water and stir. Should I not be adding more water then and just stir? I like that idea. Lol. Plus I'd like a scoby.

Might not get a Scoby in 24 hours.. for my huge flock I used a trash can.. takes about 3 days at my temp to get a good ferment going and and once you have GOOD amount of back slop.. add equal parts water and feed at the end of each day.. your day's worth.. Whole grains take longer to ferment than a pelleted feed.. they aren't a better choice they're just a different choice.. which MAY allow the birds to pick out only their faves and ultimately end up malnourished, sometimes even facing fatty hemorrhagic liver syndrome.. MOST likely to happen if GENETICALLY predisposed somehow (SOME orps) and also fed excess treats.

Just keep it kind of breakfast oatmeal consistency or where your birds like it.. If you are't feeling that fluffy layer separation or seeing bubbles coming up and hearing all the little gurgles.. it probably needs longer.

Appropriately disagreeing, I have witnessed for myself while fermenting that the chickens both eat and consume less. And if you believe pickles have benefits, I don't see why FF wouldn't. Fermenting and pickling are similar.

Limited benefits at best, when under balanced conditions. *Maybe* helping those who have some needs or with issues. Chicken eat to meet their energy aka calorie need.. and it varies by day sometimes. Mine was a long term assessment through many seasons and so on. I'm glad your experience disagrees with mine (that's okay!) which studies also states that consumption goes down with palatability.. something I also witnessed.. FF is fine line. It was fun as many experiments are.. learning is always invaluable.. but cost.. I'm a money MISER and I'm clear when I say NOT a dime.

Pickles are um pickled.. is that really the same as fermenting?

Is lowering the gut PH of a chicken better than how God made it.. IDK!

As a treat FINE. As a constant feed source.. NOT on my watch after ALL the research and personal/experience..

 

[PioneerChicks]

Pickles are um pickled.. is that really the same as fermenting?

You can pickle pickles or ferment pickles. They are different, but similar. I'm still working on the "sciency" stuff, so I'm not sure how yet. I'm focusing on Cellular Respiration at the moment.

 

[Humanbean68]

I have just started feeding fermented scratch in the mornings....i drain it before putting it out and it’s not a huge amount so they get it all before it freezes.

 

[Manhen]

dit.. if your fermenting well.. there is NO need to drain.. that's a wasted step.. just add more feed and keep it stirred.. mold never grows on top, just scoby.

I think this is a good idea and have been considering how, particularly as I want to put warming jackets on the fermenters. I would maintain two 20 gallon tanks working, one for morning and one for afternoons, that way feeding twice a day will still have all grain in the mix working for at least 24 hours. A third container would be needed to act as a take out for cleaning step. Soaked grain gets an increase to 180% of dry weight, I will have to determine the rate to reach that, as the amount withdrawn should be based on dry weight and their will be differing ages of soaked grain in the mix. Hmmmmm. Efficient mixing could be calculated using either Bernoulli's equation or the Navier-Stokes equation. I like. Skip the math tho.

 

[Manhen]

I'm in Ontario, Canada. There's no free ranging right now with the frozen ground and so much snow. Lol.
I also have layer pellets available for them all day long. They don't eat them very much though. Maybe I'm giving them too much of the fermented feed right now. If I give them less then they'll eat up all of the fermented feed.

I find a dog bowl that contains the juice allows the fed mash to last longer without molding. The fermented feed is boosted-bioavailability. Some of this is simply the soaking effect, then some is the bacterial action. The ideal temperature for l.b. is around 100 F, however there are competing bacteria to avoid. I find I get a good smelling frothy result when it's above 80 F. That being said, even if it is too cold to "ferment" there is still the benefit of soaking.

I would not ferment commercial feed. It is already digested in the manufacturer's process and all you might add is it's more appetizing to the birds. Compare oats from your cabinet to oatmeal cookies, to sourdough bread and beer.... Bread and beer will keep you healthiest.

Fermented scratch is an excellent idea, as good as commercial if you ask me, but you have to spike it with a protein additive, 10% soy meal or 5% fish meal.

 

[Manhen]

Ya...I thought the freezing would mess up the enzymes and such. Thank you.
I think that's a good idea to feed only the amount they can eat in that short time. Then they can eat the layer pellets the rest of the time. Or I can feed them a few times a day. Whatever works will be done. Lol.

If it is cold enough the enzymes, etc. will hold up fine in most cases. I am not sure about the bacteria. I freeze some mash, good and wet but still drained, in an old milk carton. Feeding time_thaw a bit and cut off the cardboard. Put it in a dog dish and they will eat is as it thaws. A treat in the summer, and really long lasting in the winter. The Kanuks? will need to microwave it as it will freeze too hard.

In addition to twice daily mash they have the same grain mix, with the same soy meal, etc. stirred in dry added to a hanging feeder. No calcium in the feed, oyster shells on the side please....

How healthy is this diet of mine? The only birds I have lost have been due to changes in the flock (and one fox attack). Lots of delicious eggs. Only 4 days last year with no eggs. The Amish were buying mine... Proud I am indeed.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I would not ferment commercial feed. It is already digested in the manufacturer's process and all you might add is it's more appetizing to the birds. Compare oats from your cabinet to oatmeal cookies, to sourdough bread and beer.... Bread and beer will keep you healthiest.

I fail to comprehend your point.. water is water is water and adding water weight does not increase nutrients.

Bread and beer will NOT be a healthier choice than anything, IMHO..

One way or the other come hell or high water NONE of us is going to live forever.. I'll take the oatmeal cookies over the bread and beer ALL day EVERY day AND have a healthier state of mind.. which translates to a healthier body as well.

Formulated ration feed isn't predigested.. it's pre formulated... HELLO, BIG difference! The nutrients are added in the correct proportions to sustain the life of DOMESTIC birds in captivity.

Pre-digested feed.. is the pig poo and chicken droppings my dogs eat.. guess what it's loaded with undigested nutrients AND beneficial bacteria (probiotics), in addition to all the gross stuff. Not because they're missing anything, but because they like it!

How healthy is this diet of mine? The only birds I have lost have been due to changes in the flock (and one fox attack). Lots of delicious eggs. Only 4 days last year with no eggs. The Amish were buying mine... Proud I am indeed.

Uhm.. there's a lot at stake besides just diet.. there's genetics and LUCK.. you got lucky.. Amish are just people like any other people.. pride goes before the fall.. humility is a cherished trait!

To act like other folks who face egg binding, liver failure, internal laying or any of the other things you WILL face if you keep enough birds for enough years.. were giving bad diets is just ignorance on the part of the one who assumes those things.. LUCK..

Egg laying is light related and genetics in addition to AGE.. bragging about only 4 days without eggs is bragging about something you have little impact on.. Lets see you go only 4 days when your birds are 3 years old, mid molt.. without supplemental lighting and so on.. SHM.. vent vent vent.. those of us who FACE disease and work worth rare genetics, and breed our birds know the TRUTH,, nutrition is ONE factor.. and no diet will make ANY bird live forever or lay every day.. besides what kind of Amish worth their weight in salt would be buying eggs or birds from someone outside their own or not already be able to provide it for themselves??? I thought their whole idea was self sufficiency.. Amish is a religion.. no different than Christian, Mormon, or JW.. No one is better than the other!

I said it once and I'll say it again.. fermenting feed is over rated at best, I already provided links.. and have rested that case.

Listen, I'm sorry for my gut reaction that made the venting spew. It's stupidity on my part to allow anything to effect me that way!

My heart is in the right place despite it expressing itself inappropriately at times.

I'm truly happy for you, that you're having a wonderful adventure AND that you were able to share your products with someone who made you feel fantastic!!

Thank you also for sharing the stories and details of your adventure. Just don't be to "cocky" lest it might come back to bite ya! Hope you can look past my ugliness to see the friendly intent, please.

 

[Manhen]

A career working in the life sciences.....

Cooking is predigestion, it increases the bioavailability of the nutrients. Cooking is a term...for example making yoghurt could be considered cooking, just cool temperatures. Nearly all animal feed I am aware of has been subjected to wetting and heating. The same bacteria in fermented feed make yoghurt, a more nutritious form of milk. University studies have shown that nutrient bioavailability of fermented food increases by 25-40% (for the 3 or so nutrients (amino acids and B6 perhaps?) that I was able to find published papers on). The fermentation biproducts are minimal and do not contribute much to the nutritive content of the mixture. For l.b. the byproduct is lactic acid rather than as alcohol from yeast. thus excessive fermentation makes it too sour for a chicken's liking. Pigs will eat it anyway. It is known that dry food, particularly grain passes through the digestive tract incompletely digested, and thus is lost, soaking reduces this, and fermentation chemically releases more nutrients. The birds will need to consume less to meet their needs. When I miss a fermented food feeding, the dry reservoir drops very fast compared to the amount of fermented food they would eat and I use less total weight of grain. So for me to slack off a day costs me about 25 lbs of grain rather than the 15 to ferment. It comes down to effort to be worthwhile to you, I have a lot of chickens so the time spent IS worthwhile, for cash, exercise, and understanding of my birds. Plus they really dig it. I have a fench jutting out into the pen before my gate, it stops them from mobbing me as I enter with the bucket. They never learn.