FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[EggSighted4Life]

@mobius One of my many made up words! Couldn't decide how to spell it.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Dog food (depending on the brand) is a mixture of plant and animal products (dogs are omnivores, despite what some overpriced DF manufacturers would like you to believe) usually byproducts like organs and things humans would generally not go for. I wouldn't ferment that because 'fermented' meat is generally not good for anything that has not evolved to eat carrion.

Now if you want to give your dog the benefits of FF you could always add some fermented vegetable products alongside his/her normal feed.

Ya, so many of them are using peas, blueberries... all kinds of delightful stuff in their formulas.

My dogs are TOTALLY omnivores. One year we had plenty of green tomatoes and never a single red one. Come to find out the DOG was eating the red ones, and the jalapenos to boot! My current 3 dogs enjoy banana as long as it isn't over ripe. 1 of them will take bites of heads of lettuce, eat strawberry tops, broccoli, and they all eat carrots, though my eldest female is moody about WHEN she eats them. When we go out for a walk my dogs are on the hunt for a very specific type of grass that grows a little tall, so gets too knocked down in my own yard. And that's not the one they eat when they need to throw up. Apparently that one is still in my yard because I see them use it on occasion.

Also, I could understand corn not being digested IF it were whole. I mean come on, people can't digest whole corn either! But in dog feed it's ground up. Anyways, we bought in a while back and use rice based feed now and probably forever, which DID significantly reduce the size of poos and the amount of gas. We can always tell when people do feed corn products though.

No easy access to all that raw meat stuff here. Plus, I do good to fix myself a bowl of cereal or some toast! But I guess I do sprout and ferment for my chickens.

My mom used to feed her poor chihuahua human food EVERY day. Said the dog wouldn't eat her own food. I wonder why?! Dog never had a normal BM. And Killer always went and ate my dog feed when they came over... When our dogs were outdoor dogs and I never picked up poo (20 years ago) I never knew what feeding scraps did to them. Now my dogs live in the house and there are 3, so I pick up poo almost everyday. It was easy to see what scraps did and so we rarely feed them out any more.

Oh, but I do have a neighbor who feeds my dogs treats at the fence. Always gassy afterwards and weird/gross poos. My dogs are 50-65# but she is generous and hands out easily 4 each. Rawhide's cause major problems. My male will look at the wall instead of the rawhide, if my female is around.

I don't doubt that raw diet is great and provides nice shiny coats as well as other health benefits. I always get complimented on how shiny my dogs are when I take them to the vet.

Eventually I hope to get to the point where the dogs can eat our extra chicken parts. But for now they hit the trash. We are still growing in our process.

 

[lazy gardener]

No snakes! (Wow ... how would you build a pen to keep snakes out? A weasel is like a pencil on legs ... I can't imagine trying to build a fence for a pencil without legs!)

We have Harrier hawks, and I lost duck eggs to those once, but they behave pretty well most of the time.

Chickens are about as safe as they could be ... they can free range as far as they like wherever they like, nothing will ever touch them. They can sleep in a tree or on the ground if they really want (I'd rather they didn't, but often they like to go 'camping' in good weather), and they will be perfectly fine. Chicks can be a bit more hazardous ... rats are an issue for them ... but they can free range all day with their mother without serious risk, and as long as they're back in a box at night there isn't usually a problem.

Weasels when they do come can get anything up to about a month old, and during the day too, but usually only if the chicks are locked in and can be cornered. They're actually safer free ranging! I've only had trouble with 3 weasels in 18 years.

Now ducklings are in trouble ... bad trouble ... we do have a lot of eels!

It's fascinating to hear what your environment is like, and how that affects your husbandry methods. We have to cover every thing with 1/2" hardware cloth to keep weasels out, and to keep coons from tearing their way in. Down south, they have snake issues as well, but the snakes here are not a problem. Last night, I had to get dressed and go out in the middle of the night to figure out what kind of critters were calling from the trees. I got a flash light beam on one of them, about 30' up in the tree, but couldn't identify it, so didn't shoot. After doing a bit of research, I've come to the conclusion that there were a couple of mink casing the chicken buffet last night. Wish I'd shot at it. We have night time predators of all descriptions, and I've seen my share of them during the day as well: mink, weasel, coon, possum, coyote, fox, owl, plenty of hawks of all species. We have fisher cat, but I've not seen one of those, only seen their destruction. There is even mountain lion here, but the state wild life experts deny it.

 

[Ebarnes-21]

There was a study done on cats ... they fed one group cooked food, one raw food. Mostly meat and milk. Of course cooked milk just means ordinary pasteurized milk.

The cooked food group, over time, got sicker and sicker ... had weight issues (as in too skinny), and stopped having kittens much. They had issues with worms etc, and had to be treated for all those same as most cats do.

The raw group thrived. Almost no worms or fleas, no serious health issues.

We feed our cats possum. I mean literally ... leave them a dead possum ... they'll sort it out.

I would do the same for a dog if we had one right now, but for a dog you have to take the head and claws off.

Re grain based feeds for dogs ... we did a lot of research on this a few years back.

1) yes, dogs naturally eat the stomach content of their prey. FF!

2)most of that is veg, not grain anyway.

3) the grains they grow for petfood are the worst. They grow them between years of cotton crops to pull the pesticide residue out of the ground because it is so heavy the cotton can't grow any more. Those pesticides aren't allowed into the human food chain (although they end up in peanut butter anyway, they did a study that proved people couldn't taste the chemical unless it was applied above the normal rate, it so it was OK! No joke!), but they can safely load up the pet food with those chemical drenched grains because no-one eats dog or cat ... or horse ... you get the drift. They can even say they're "Pesticide free" because nothing is applied to the grain crop itself.

There are a lot of dogs around getting serious skin issues, I mean they look like mange, but the vets can't identify it. They just put your dog on steroids for life which stop working after a while. Worst case, they'll wear their teeth to bone level chewing at themselves.

Check for yourself. Look up the sprays they use on cotton. Look up the grains grown in between crops to pull the residue out of the soil. Its all there in the farming advice! Check the companies that grow them ... they also run petfood chains. Then check the symptoms of poisoning with those chemicals. It is a perfect track all the way.

My verdict with the dog feed would be ... Omnivorous yes certainly ... give him meat, raw if possible.
Get him small amounts of grain (grown for livestock, not pets) and as much veg as he wants ... ferment the grain, and any starchy veges too.

Meat can be fermented in a very well controlled environment. Think Salami ... that is fermented meat. That tangy flavour in good Salami?? Lactic acid. But, it takes either a culture, a preservative, or a cellar that has been used for Salami so long it is a culture ... otherwise you're running too much risk with raw meats.

Now you won't give your dog botulism fermenting how you are for just a few days, that species takes weeks to grow. Also dogs do have guts designed to cope with the odd ... er ... rotting corpse ... but that doesn't mean its great either ... expect Canine Flatulence!!!

 

[Ebarnes-21]

We really only have to worry about rats and weasels for babies. 1/2" chicken mesh is adequate ... after they are about a month old you no longer have to worry about rats, and weasels are a) so rare they're almost an afterthought, and b) after the chickens are about 2 months old there's no problem anyway. Of course when they do strike they kill all chicks for the sheer fun of it.

The one thing we learned real early was the floor chicks sleep on under the mother must be totally solid. The rats won't come near that beak ... but no little 1/3" gaps every 4" to make it easier to clean. We lost 3 legs off 2 chicks in one night!! From right under Sooty mum too ... how horrible for her I still can't stop imagining it ... actually that is the only time we lost any lives to a rat, and as it turned out Monopod lived and was very mobile on one leg ... but it had a lasting impression on just how nasty rats can be.

 

[Ebarnes-21]

Whoa I fed my chickens ... Can they have really stopped eating THAT much???

I think my chickens have reduced their feed consumption to about 30% what it was ...???

So quickly? They're just not hungry!

I thought it was a bit odd they didn't eat much last night, but I was about a half hour late anyway (sorry ladies I was up a ladder), and it was almost dusk.

But this morning they're not hungry either ... normally they eat about 6 cups of dry feed in the morning and 3 in the evening.

Last night they ate one cup FF, and this morning 3 cups. Hello??

Now I'm going to have shift feeding around a little, they're so stuffed they won't eat their meat. Bother ... next time I feed them that first.

 

[mobius]

We are calculating 15 to 25 percent less feed.

And related cost savings.

 

[JaeG]

There was a study done on cats ... they fed one group cooked food, one raw food. Mostly meat and milk. Of course cooked milk just means ordinary pasteurized milk.

The cooked food group, over time, got sicker and sicker ... had weight issues (as in too skinny), and stopped having kittens much. They had issues with worms etc, and had to be treated for all those same as most cats do.

The raw group thrived. Almost no worms or fleas, no serious health issues.

We feed our cats possum. I mean literally ... leave them a dead possum ... they'll sort it out.

I would do the same for a dog if we had one right now, but for a dog you have to take the head and claws off.

Re grain based feeds for dogs ... we did a lot of research on this a few years back.

1) yes, dogs naturally eat the stomach content of their prey. FF!

2)most of that is veg, not grain anyway.

3) the grains they grow for petfood are the worst. They grow them between years of cotton crops to pull the pesticide residue out of the ground because it is so heavy the cotton can't grow any more. Those pesticides aren't allowed into the human food chain (although they end up in peanut butter anyway, they did a study that proved people couldn't taste the chemical unless it was applied above the normal rate, it so it was OK! No joke!), but they can safely load up the pet food with those chemical drenched grains because no-one eats dog or cat ... or horse ... you get the drift. They can even say they're "Pesticide free" because nothing is applied to the grain crop itself.

There are a lot of dogs around getting serious skin issues, I mean they look like mange, but the vets can't identify it. They just put your dog on steroids for life which stop working after a while. Worst case, they'll wear their teeth to bone level chewing at themselves.

Check for yourself. Look up the sprays they use on cotton. Look up the grains grown in between crops to pull the residue out of the soil. Its all there in the farming advice! Check the companies that grow them ... they also run petfood chains. Then check the symptoms of poisoning with those chemicals. It is a perfect track all the way.

My verdict with the dog feed would be ... Omnivorous yes certainly ... give him meat, raw if possible.
Get him small amounts of grain (grown for livestock, not pets) and as much veg as he wants ... ferment the grain, and any starchy veges too.

Meat can be fermented in a very well controlled environment. Think Salami ... that is fermented meat. That tangy flavour in good Salami?? Lactic acid. But, it takes either a culture, a preservative, or a cellar that has been used for Salami so long it is a culture ... otherwise you're running too much risk with raw meats.

Now you won't give your dog botulism fermenting how you are for just a few days, that species takes weeks to grow. Also dogs do have guts designed to cope with the odd ... er ... rotting corpse ... but that doesn't mean its great either ... expect Canine Flatulence!!!

Wow - that's just scary! Our dog has only had flatulence when given something with too much fat in it. A whole duck frame or too much lamb brisket and she stinks! So we avoid the problem foods. In the past if she hasn't liked something we've given her she's buried it then dug it up again once it's really gross and eaten it with no ill effects, maggots and all!

Whoa I fed my chickens ... Can they have really stopped eating THAT much???

I think my chickens have reduced their feed consumption to about 30% what it was ...???

So quickly? They're just not hungry!

I thought it was a bit odd they didn't eat much last night, but I was about a half hour late anyway (sorry ladies I was up a ladder), and it was almost dusk.

But this morning they're not hungry either ... normally they eat about 6 cups of dry feed in the morning and 3 in the evening.

Last night they ate one cup FF, and this morning 3 cups. Hello??

Now I'm going to have shift feeding around a little, they're so stuffed they won't eat their meat. Bother ... next time I feed them that first.

I'm feeding so much less as well - it's just amazing! When laying picks up again I'm picking they'll need a bit more but I'm certainly saving money on feeding my birds. I've started soaking my caged and aviary birds seeds too and they love it - I take the bowl of it into the aviary in the morning and everybody wants to get there first.

I've been reading about phytic acid, which is in any grain, seed, nut and preserves it until it is given the water to start sprouting, in relation to human health and it's not great for us. The phytic acid locks up the nutrients so that we can't digest a decent enough amount for good health. Fermenting grains and sprouting them make them much more digestable. I tried to find sprouted wheat flour here in New Zealand - it was $14.35 NZD ($10.75 USD) for 400g (14oz)!!! A little out of my price range for day to day baking, but I might be starting my own sour dough culture to bake my own bread!

 

[Ebarnes-21]

Wow - that's just scary! Our dog has only had flatulence when given something with too much fat in it. A whole duck frame or too much lamb brisket and she stinks! So we avoid the problem foods. In the past if she hasn't liked something we've given her she's buried it then dug it up again once it's really gross and eaten it with no ill effects, maggots and all!



I'm feeding so much less as well - it's just amazing! When laying picks up again I'm picking they'll need a bit more but I'm certainly saving money on feeding my birds. I've started soaking my caged and aviary birds seeds too and they love it - I take the bowl of it into the aviary in the morning and everybody wants to get there first.

I've been reading about phytic acid, which is in any grain, seed, nut and preserves it until it is given the water to start sprouting, in relation to human health and it's not great for us. The phytic acid locks up the nutrients so that we can't digest a decent enough amount for good health. Fermenting grains and sprouting them make them much more digestable. I tried to find sprouted wheat flour here in New Zealand - it was $14.35 NZD ($10.75 USD) for 400g (14oz)!!! A little out of my price range for day to day baking, but I might be starting my own sour dough culture to bake my own bread!

Ah yes Phytic Acid. Interesting stuff isn't it? There are pros and cons to it. Obviously no-one wants all their minerals locked up and even pulled out of their bones and teeth. Major issue there. However ...

Some of the minerals it locks up are linked to certain health issues in excess ... for instance, excess iron in the wrong form acts as a free radical, oxidising cells ... literally rust in your body ... which is a major cause of aging. They say that is why men live average 5 years less, they don't lose blood (iron) women do ... apparently if men are blood donors their longevity goes up.

Additionally, in some cases calcification in tissues (joints, organs) is a problem too ... again, only if it is in the wrong form for the body to use best.

These forms are the ones phytic acid locks up most of. But, they're the easy forms to get in your diet too.

Additionally, as it is a potent antioxidant, phytic acid helps protect cells from most forms of damage, toxins, UV, etc ... and helps prevent cancer, because cancer is ultimately the result of a cell who was damaged and not fixed.

So it is not all bad ... just very bad in the wrong circumstances. In the right circumstances, phytic acid could be very good for you. But if you don't have plenty of the right forms of minerals in your diet it will starve you. This is exactly what it does to most people ... and as such, until better dietary uses for it are available, avoiding it is the right idea most of the time!

How and when phytic acid can actually do you good is something I am still working on, but it clearly could.

Sourdough is really easy. Get a bowl, about a cup of wholemeal flour, a Tbsp sugar, and enough warm water to mix it to a sloppy batter. Whip it vigorously all around your kitchen (no don't splash it around the walls, I mean stir air into it in different areas of your house to expose it to bacteria).

If you like, you can instead add a spoon of bread yeast and one of yoghurt. I've done both methods ... they both seemed to work the same.

Cover your bowl with glad wrap and leave it in a warm place in your kitchen. Every day, take out 1/2 cup of batter (you can add this to ordinary bread recipe now, but it won't be vigorous enough to rise it all by itself), and replace with fresh wholemeal and water.

After about a week you should be good to go. The following is based on my bread recipe which is 380ml water, 200g wholemeal flour, 400g high grade flour, 2 tsp salt, 2 Tbsp sugar, 1 Tbsp milk powder, 1 Tbsp oil. Before bed, take out a cup of batter. Place it in a bowl (or your bread maker pan), with all the water at body temp, oil, and wholemeal flour. It should look porridgy.

If you're doing it in your bread maker, just chuck all that in and start the dough cycle.
If you're doing it by hand, mix it all in a bowl, cover, and sit that bowl inside another bowl full of very warm, or even hottish, water. Wrap with towels to hold the heat in as long as possible and go to bed.

Next morning, add the white flour, sugar and salt. Hopefully you're doing this in the breadmaker and can just start the dough cycle again now ... but stop it halfway through.
By hand, mix thoroughly, mix a bit more, really give a good going over with the mixing, and replace your warm water.
At about 12, give it a really good knead (or restart the dough cycle, again stopping it before it "Degases" the dough), and replace it's warm water.
At about 3pm, tip it out, shape it, put it in your tin, and leave it to rise. It needs warmth still, a bowl of water or over a wood stove works well. In summer the windowsill is usually good enough.
When it is almost doubled in bulk, at about 7:00, pop it in the oven. Don't forget it ... it'll take about half an hour.

Ideally you will make a loaf every day or second day to keep your starter "on the boil". However because I've been doing a lot of reading on how bad excessive carbohydrates are for you, I only make a loaf every week at most. What you can do is keep your starter in the fridge to slow it down, but bring it out the day before you need to use it, warm it up and feed it to get it going nicely.

Get to know your starter ... it communicates by smell and gases. If at any time your starter stops gassing and smelling the way it should, smells maybe like vinegar, separates, and stops rising bread, dump it and start again. Smelling bad and not making bread is not a good sign for a bread starter ...

 

[tigger19687]

Ack, darn pullets didn't eat their FF last night.
I am hoping it is because I gave them more later then usual.
I think I spoiled them by letting them out in the front to 'graze'
Now every time I go out there they expect me to take them out.