FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[bluerat]

Fermented is digested a lot better I started doing it after finding my birds weren't thriving on dry mix and water. They immediately began thriving and have been since.

 

[Audio51]

WOOOOHOOOOO!
First egg!! I think it was probably Lemon as she has been fully squatting more the last few days. Leticia squats too, but she was a couple days behind Lemon. Snoop's comb grew about a half inch since 2 days ago and is super red, but she doesn't squat yet.

Dottie on the other hand has started pecking on everyone's legs, like an attack chicken. She has the smallest comb and wattles of anyone and still quite pale. Is she mad that she isn't progressing like the others? She gets scolded and swatted every time she pecks but she is persistent and follows waiting for the opportunity. My best friend and #1 babysitter is starting to fear her!

Back to my egg!!

Here it was just waiting for us!

So pretty and really small!!

Broke it into the skillet and WHAT? a double yolker first time out of the gate??

Look at the super dark orange yolk oozing out! Seriously a drop to your knees flavor reminiscent of my childhood raising chickens! What an awesome feeling today! We figured mid-March when we first got our chicks, thinking about 25 weeks. They just turned 20 weeks on Tuesday and we just can't believe we have an egg already!

I have 4 BC Marans that are all laying but none of them have ever squatted. I don't know if it's a breed thing, but come to think of it, my Buff Orphington is also laying and has never squatted.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I have 4 BC Marans that are all laying but none of them have ever squatted. I don't know if it's a breed thing, but come to think of it, my Buff Orphington is also laying and has never squatted.

If you have roosters, they might be squatting for them instead of for humans?

 

[Audio51]

No roosters. I guess I'm not "man" enough for them.......which makes sense since I am a woman!

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I'm asking about the format of the commercial starter products.

I'm sorry. The powdered starter I'm using contains the following:
Bacillus subtilis
Lactobacilus acidophilus
Pediococcus acidilactici
Pediococcus pentosaceus
Saccharomyces cerevisiae

It was formulated specifically for chickens based on research in Egypt.
It can be used mixed with water or feed for all poultry and waterfowl.
I see no reason it wouldn't be valuable as a FF starter.

The kefir I'm using contains:
L. acidophilus
B. bacterium lactis
L. lactis subsp. Lactis
L. lactis subsp. Cremoris
L. lactis subsp. lacti biovar. Diacetylactis
L. mesenteroides subsp. Cremoris
L. delbrueckii subsp. Bulgaricus
L. delbrueckii subsp. Lactis
L. rhamnosus
L. casei
S. thermophilus

Sarahsunshine asked if I'd share that study I referred to in a former post. Here is a link to it ... http://maxwellsci.com/print/ajfst/v4-1-8.pdf

It was a four-way study of fermented cereal gruel ... a common baby food in parts of Africa ... to determine which fermentation technique produced the biggest boost in nutrients in the feed with the least chance for cultivating undesirables.

They studied four types of fermented gruel:
1) Natural Fermentation (no starter used)
2) Starter of L. Pentosus
3) Starter of L. Acidophilus
4) Mixture of both starters in the same batch.

The measured various things at day 1, day 2 and day 3.

The best results were from #4 ... where both starters were used. One chart shows what looks like a 14% increase in protein on on Day 3 from the "mixed" batch.

Also ... "All these fermented samples exhibited some degree of inhibition on all the test bacterial cultures. The mixed culture fermented samples had higher values than the single culture fermented samples for all parameters tested indicating higher efficacy." That's from the abstract ... details available in the study.

There are various other discussions of fermented cereal grains published through the United Nations. This is important stuff for a lot of the world.

Thanks for the studies.

This is for starting fermentation? What about established, back-slopping established batches? And how does cereal grain translate to chicken feed?

Chicken feed is primarily cereal grains. Corn is often the #1 ingredient in the US.
Various cereal grains are used around the world, depending on wheat grows better there and is the cheapest.

Ok, not sure what L. Pentosus is . EM-1 is L. Acidophilus. How about kombucha or kefir. Aren't they both Acidophilus? Just thinking.

Edited: Sorry, I see everybody else is asking the same thing. Great minds yada yada

I think any could be used as long as the container guarantees live active cultures.

And here I was hoping you guys would answer MY question.

About starter cultures and backslopping. The reading I've done suggests ferments are generally "healthy" cultures, the strength of which and pH of which prevent any "undesirables" from thriving in the same space. That's why I like to stir the stuff on top of mine back down down deeper into the bucket ... if it's bad stuff on top, then the healthy pickle smelling low pH stuff below will neutralize it.

Why we use starters, IF we choose to use them at all, is to insure the healthy cultures are the first to thrive and establish dominance.

Backslopping is done to "share" the healthy culture from one batch of fermented food with subsequent batches INSTEAD of restarting everything with a fresh supply of (expensive) starters or another dose of faith/crossed fingers that the first thing to grow & dominate will be a healthy thing. Essentially the "backslopping" becomes the starter.

Same here. When beginning FF, I didn't trust the good cultures would establish before the bad ones.

That would be nice! Particularly if it is a soy based feed. The logic suggests the fermenting process drastically reduces the anti-nutrients in the legumes as well as In the grains. And the natural ferments of cereal grains can be richer than other things ... grains can have a lot of natural spores on them.

But do not dismiss the information of the quantified study I DID find. There aren't many studies like that -- does anyone even know of another? -- it is quite a find! It is a strong argument in favor of fermenting grains to increase their nutritional value. Also the study is an argument in favor of using a starter when fermenting, but that seems less important/interesting to me.

Corn can be a major ingredient in chicken feed in the USA -- the study was of corn. Other places sometimes use wheat in place of corn in chicken feed. But wheat is still a cereal grain like corn is.

I found some other studies and if I find them in my favorites, I'll post them.

I don't see how a species of any animal would be relevant in the second study ... the experiment was of grains, not an animals.

I think the difference in animals in the study is of monogastric (swine, poultry) as opposed to ruminents. (cattle, goats
Monogastric herbivores (horses, rabbits) are hindgut fermenters. Ruminents are foregut fermenters.

Sorgum is just another word for Milo. It's been in chicken food forever. The south always fed animals sorgum and the northerners used corn. Just a logistic thing I'm sure. The sorgum grew better down here. Also in an old book I read that corn was needed for energy in northern winters. Myth? Who knows. This is exciting stuff. I think it's worthy of more investigation. Good job ladies.

http://www.ksgrains.com/sorghum/MiloMania04.pdf

I have 4 BC Marans that are all laying but none of them have ever squatted. I don't know if it's a breed thing, but come to think of it, my Buff Orphington is also laying and has never squatted.

As Leslie said, it's more rooster related than breed.
Squatting really has nothing to do with egg laying but a desire to be bred.
Without a rooster, the animal husbander is seen by the hen as the man of the house regardless of whether the tender is male or female.
A hen that doesn't squat has either had the attention of a hen or just doesn't have a breeding interest.
Non-squatters will still lay just as many eggs.
IME, squatters will usually come from DP breeds that aren't with a rooster.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Oh, lolol. No, *you're* fine. I think the studies are great! It's just some people need a whole lot of somethin' to be convinced. Some of them, you'll never convince because it's not "natural."

Sorgum is just another word for Milo. It's been in chicken food forever. The south always fed animals sorgum and the northerners used corn. Just a logistic thing I'm sure. The sorgum grew better down here. Also in an old book I read that corn was needed for energy in northern winters. Myth? Who knows. This is exciting stuff. I think it's worthy of more investigation. Good job ladies.

Yeah ... I was just having a "moment." I casually mention the words "food grade bucket" in a post and inspire pages of posts thoroughly shaming me for it. One of which was the top rated post of the day yesterday. Boy did that leave me feeling stoooooooopid.

Then I go to the effort of not only providing links to, but (on demand) typing up (from my sick bed, so using an iPhone, which isn't the easiest way to post to this forum) a rather detailed explanation for two GREAT research articles that actually quantify the nutritional boost of fermented grains ... grains that are included as primary ingredients in poultry rations in many parts of the world ... and discuss specific fermenting procedures, only to get told it isn't relevant.

Nobody even "liked" my posts.

This pity party I'm throwing for myself could be due to a Seasonal Chocolate Deficiency. I think our bodies have adapted to receiving a chocolate infusion on February 14th, and I never got mine.

I could probably apply for disability.

 

[Audio51]

Quote:
I have never had roosters here, so I know it's not that. I have Marans, Ameraucanas, Orphingtons,Wyandottes, Sex Links and Banty Cochins. Of them the Sex link, Wyandotte and 1 of the Ameraucanas squat. None of the others do. The Wyandotte is the top hen, but is broody right now. I only have one pullet that has not POL yet......that is the Ameraucana that does squat.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

What was the problem with food grade buckets?

I use pickle buckets (food grade) for everything food or water related.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I think the difference in animals in the study is of monogastric (swine, poultry) as opposed to ruminents. (cattle, goats
Monogastric herbivores (horses, rabbits) are hindgut fermenters. Ruminents are foregut fermenters.

I might be missing something here, but ... both studies analyzed different aspects of fermentation of grains from a nutrition/food safety perspective that seems to me to be entirely independent of any animal species. The baby-food study DID discuss how appealing the food was to humans, but that part of the study had no bearing on the results of the nutritional/safety analysis.

One relevant correlation between these studies and what we're discussing here in this thread is that for human babies in Nigeria and farmed poultry & pigs, what the fermentation of the grains is attempting to do is overcome the nutritional deficiencies of a grain-based diet for an omnivore. The Nigerian study indicates that the traditional concept of fermenting cereal grains is nutritionally sound -- the study proves that fermentation increases the overall protein content of the cereals, and fills in some of the missing amino acids, and makes the food safer (and tastier, but that part of the study isn't as relevant). The information this study provides is important for any omnivore restricted to a grain-based diet (like babies, who have to be fed and can't explain their "cravings", or farm animals who can't do their own shopping and have had their forage range drastically limited).

Fermenting cereal grains for omnivores is an easy, natural solution to a serious problem which has somehow managed to stump modern science.

Publications from the UN describe how wide-spread the traditional practice of fermenting cereal grains and other foods is throughout much of the world. They might not have always had amino acids in mind when developing the traditions, but I'm sure the results of fermentation were obvious enough that the traditions developed. I'd like to see more studies about the specific nutritional boosts of fermentation, particularly fermentation of cereal grains. Yes, I'd love a study of a standard soy-based poultry ration ... that would be icing on the cake.

I think it is marvelous that Beekissed has brought the idea of fermented feed here ... and when she gets back I'm going to ask her how she thought of it.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

What was the problem with food grade buckets?

I use pickle buckets (food grade) for everything food or water related.

Apparently anyone using a food grade bucket is being "silly" (and possibly lazy) for wasting time/energy/money/concern on that as any bucket will do (if you scrub it enough) & we're all going to die anyway and there are more important things to think about. And, no, it doesn't matter if you got the food-grade bucket for free, or accidentally purchased it without knowing it was "food grade." You're just as silly as anyone who went out and bought a food-grade bucket on purpose.

Of course I might be exaggerating a bit, but that's the gist of it.

I'm really being a brat right now. Someone needs to send me to my room. Stat.