FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[LeslieDJoyce]

You guys are sweet. I've learned so much from helpful people here. It has been much appreciated and also very inspiring. I really am grateful for BYC. Paying it forward happen here all the time!

 

[subhanalah]

You guys are sweet. I've learned so much from helpful people here. It has been much appreciated and also very inspiring. I really am grateful for BYC. Paying it forward happen here all the time!

I think I heard a nomination and at least two people who back it. I say That qualifies you as a sticky starter for fermented feed.

 

[22qZoo]

Ok so, if 24 hrs is good, and 48 hrs is better, and 72 hrs is best. What are we getting when we do the the drier daily back-slop method that goes on for ever ? Just curious , I've had mine going now for a few months.
BTW- I just found the Do It Yourself recipe thread, (yay) more good reading.

 

[Tikkijane]

Ok so, if 24 hrs is good, and 48 hrs is better, and 72 hrs is best. What are we getting when we do the the drier daily back-slop method that goes on for ever ? Just curious , I've had mine going now for a few months.
BTW- I just found the Do It Yourself recipe thread, (yay) more good reading.

??? I don't follow. Initial ferment takes 3/4 daya. Wait it out. Feed after that point.
Backslop and refresh as needed. Your ferment will be solid (because you waited) and your never-ending bucket is good to go. What am I missing?

 

[22qZoo]

 
I have a question folks--I started fermenting chick starter 2 mos ago--it's nice, bubbly smells right etc.  I pit about 6 cups fresh feed in the container every day--I notice it gets more active working on the new stuff--my question is--will some of the new feed then not be fermented.  How does that work?  Also, bc I only have chicks right now I am using a 2 gallon glass jar but am making a huge drippy mess on my floors when carring feed in sifter from bathroom out to coop.  I could move feed out in a large patio bin I keep in run for feed, supplies but we still are in the 30s at night--is that too cold?  You wouldn't believe how hard the drips are to mop up!

I think there are two convenient solutions.

The first is to mix the FF a little drier so it isn't "drippy." This saves a step of having to drain it. 

The second is to dump the sifter into a container that doesn't drip while you're transporting it ... a small bucket or bowl. 

The studies I've read about the benefits of fermenting grains indicate that there are measurable nutritional boosts after the first 24 hours of ferment time, and those boosts increase for three days (that's as long as the study I've read lasted). So ... fermenting feed for 24 hours is good, fermenting it for 48 hours is "better", and fermenting it for 96 hours is "even better."

Note, that study stopped at 3 days ferment, and I do not yet know the "optimal" ferment time ... or even if there is such a thing ... just that there were measurable increases in the benefits of fermenting the grains at each of the 24 hour markers.  

That part that LDJ had about the length of time the grains are fermented . No big deal, the FF is going great, just wondering . If I feed half of my bucket everyday and back slop and stir in a new half everyday what level of fermentation would my bucket be at.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Ok so, if 24 hrs is good, and 48 hrs is better, and 72 hrs is best. What are we getting when we do the the drier daily back-slop method that goes on for ever ? Just curious , I've had mine going now for a few months.
BTW- I just found the Do It Yourself recipe thread, (yay) more good reading.

??? I don't follow. Initial ferment takes 3/4 daya. Wait it out. Feed after that point.
Backslop and refresh as needed. Your ferment will be solid (because you waited) and your never-ending bucket is good to go. What am I missing?

We're referencing the study that measured the nutritional boosts gained from fermentation that I posted a while back and we discussed here a bit. That study measured the nutrition of grains that had been fermented for different periods of time compared to unfermented grains. They found a nutritional boost after 24 hours, more of a boost after 48 hours, and even more of a boost at 72 hours. But the study didn't measure past the 72 hour point.

A little history: There is a traditional fermented grain "recipe" which is often used to feed human infants in certain areas of the world. People worried about the nutrition of feeding this recipe to infants ran tests on it and discovered the nutritional boosts.

If you "refresh" your batch every time you feed, then there are going to be different levels of "boosting" happening to individual morsels depending on how long the SCOBY has been working on them ... some fermented for 24 hours (if that's how often you refresh), some fermented indefinitely ... but even after 24 hours there is a boost in the nutrients in the grains, and of course all the "good stuff" in the liquid.

It's just a consideration for people trying to decide if they are going to have the never-ending/always-refreshing bucket, or separate "daily" buckets, or whatever system they're setting up.

For example, I'm using a 5 bucket system, each filled with 2 gallons of feed (about 12 lbs) and about 2.25 gallons of water. I feed enough that I use an entire 5 gallon bucket of feed each day -- I completely empty it. Technically I could put out at least one more bucket for the number of birds I've got going, but I'm not organized for that at the moment. I "backslop" when I refill the bucket by taking a couple spoonfuls from the most-fermented bucket. I cycle through the 5 buckets in order, so my feed is fermenting for no more than 4 full days maximum.

I thought about setting up a huge batch of feed in a food-grade barrel so it could be "bottomless," but then it would be difficult for me to stir and I'd be upside down in the barrel every day ... I imagined that wouldn't work so well for me, though other people make it work just fine.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

That part that LDJ had about the length of time the grains are fermented . No big deal, the FF is going great, just wondering . If I feed half of my bucket everyday and back slop and stir in a new half everyday what level of fermentation would my bucket be at.

I'd have to double check the study to see how much "boosting" happened at 24 hours compared to 48 & 72 ... If I remember correctly, it was about half the boost happened on the first day, with diminishing returns the next two days.

But they weren't "backslopping" in that study. In fact, they took some pains to sanitize the grains and the water and then worked with various starters compared to the "control" where nothing was used to kick-start the ferment. So ... even in a "sterile" laboratory setting, enough beneficial bacteria colonize to ferment the "control" grains within 24 hours to produce a nutritional boost.

Obviously, in that study they found better results when using a starter ... they'd done their best to kill everything else. And now someone somewhere can say, "Use Our Starter! It Works Better Than Nothing!" or however the marketing team decides to package it.

I'd say backslopping with a 24 hour ferment is probably pretty good, but that's just a guess.

 

[Aacre]

OK.. So, I put water in the feed. I am concerned that I put too much water in there? Is that possible? I read on a website to make sure the water was about an inch and a half to two inches about the feed, but a few pages back on this thread I think I read that it should be runny oatmeal consistency? Somebody let me know so I can relax or get rid of the extra water in it!

This is turning out to be a great project for me.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

OK.. So, I put water in the feed. I am concerned that I put too much water in there? Is that possible? I read on a website to make sure the water was about an inch and a half to two inches about the feed, but a few pages back on this thread I think I read that it should be runny oatmeal consistency? Somebody let me know so I can relax or get rid of the extra water in it!

This is turning out to be a great project for me.

There are two schools of thought here. One is to keep it really wet and strain it before feeding. The other is to mix it as dry as you would feed it so you don't have to strain it. The choice is yours which way you go.

That said ... it took me a while to figure out how much water I could put in my feed to keep it "stir-able" but as dry as possible so I don't have to strain it (extra step). For the feed I'm using I mix almost equal parts feed to water ... very slightly more water. It takes a while to absorb it.

I don't fill my bucket more than half-full of food and water because it swells ...

My 5 gallon bucket takes two gallons of pelleted feed and 2.25 gallons of water, and that fills the bucket about half full (the math sounds funny on that, but think about a glass full of ice that you can then add a bunch of liquid to without causing an overflow). And after it swells & ferments a bit it is nearly full so I have to be careful when stirring it.

Your brand of feed may be different.

 

[Aacre]

There are two schools of thought here. One is to keep it really wet and strain it before feeding. The other is to mix it as dry as you would feed it so you don't have to strain it. The choice is yours which way you go.

That said ... it took me a while to figure out how much water I could put in my feed to keep it "stir-able" but as dry as possible so I don't have to strain it (extra step). For the feed I'm using I mix almost equal parts feed to water ... very slightly more water. It takes a while to absorb it.

I don't fill my bucket more than half-full of food and water because it swells ...

My 5 gallon bucket takes two gallons of pelleted feed and 2.25 gallons of water, and that fills the bucket about half full (the math sounds funny on that, but think about a glass full of ice that you can then add a bunch of liquid to without causing an overflow). And after it swells & ferments a bit it is nearly full so I have to be careful when stirring it.

Your brand of feed may be different.

Thank you for your input! I don't mind the extra step of straining it.
At this point, now that you have mentioned the drier method, how do you keep the fermenting process going using this method? Do you leave behind some of the FF to give it a good start?
In any case, would you have to leave the new feed in there for 3 more days or does the liquid/leftover FF make it just as fermented? I didn't read through all these pages because it's a little intimidating and I don't want to get confused with it. I just got the basics and went from there.