FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[subhanalah]

Well, the way I read that, if the grain has been heat treated (how would you know?), there is a complete loss of phytate, and fermentation would not correct it without adding liquid phytase. Better get friendly with a farmer, or grow your own grain!

a that means that (probably) the crumbles, pellets, etc does not receive this particular benefit of fermentation?
@LeslieDJoyce

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Well, the way I read that, if the grain has been heat treated (how would you know?), there is a complete loss of phytate, and fermentation would not correct it without adding liquid phytase. Better get friendly with a farmer, or grow your own grain!

I don't think that's a real issue for us ... but I could be wrong.

ETA: a little survey of science studying this question. http://www.thenourishinggourmet.com/2010/09/reducing-phytic-acid-in-grains-and-legumes.html

It seems low heat enhances the process. It's high heat that's the problem. You'd have to read the specific study I referenced earlier to see how the "heat" variable was applied, but it must have been high heat.

My guess is commodity grains are treated as little as possible, if at all. But I have people I could ask. If I feel like it ...

 

[carnivore]

Remember back when you could stick a sweet potato halfway in a jar of water and grow it? You can't do that anymore. Turns out they treat sweet potatoes (and regular potatoes) with hormones now so they won't sprout. Might be worried about turning off a supermarket shopper? I need to do some research, but I suspect many of the grains you can buy ARE heat treated for that reason, also to kill bacteria, and completely dry the grain. There are still benefits to fermenting the feed, but the more natural and unprocessed the grain is before fermentation, the better. . . b

A while back I expressed my ignorance about "how" fermentation works to "enhance" the nutrition of grains. I believe it works, but all the "hows" have me stumped and a lot of the pro-fermentation information on the Internets is just ... vague. One of the vague claims of how fermentation boosts the nutritional value of grains is through the reduction of anti-nutrients. Here is the citation of a study that specifically addressed the question of the reduction of the phytate in Rye, Wheat & Oats via fermentation. The conclusion seems to be it is the lowering of pH through fermentation that allows the phytate reductation process inherent in the grains themselves to get to work ... "Lactic acid fermentation of cereal flours resulted in a 100 (rye), 95−100 (wheat), and 39−47% (oat) reduction in phytate content within 24 h. The extent of phytate degradation was shown to be independent from the lactic acid bacteria strain used for fermentation. However, phytate degradation during cereal dough fermentation was positively correlated with endogenous plant phytase activity (rye, 6750 mU g- 1 ; wheat, 2930 mU g- 1 ; and oat, 23 mU g- 1 ), and heat inactivation of the endogenous cereal phytases prior to lactic acid fermentation resulted in a complete loss of phytate degradation. Phytate degradation was restored after addition of a purified phytase to the liquid dough. Incubation of the cereal flours in buffered solutions resulted in a pH-dependent phytate degradation. The optimum of phytate degradation was shown to be around pH 5.5. Studies on phytase production of 50 lactic acid bacteria strains, previously isolated from sourdoughs, did not result in a significant production of intra- as well as extracellular phytase activity. Therefore, lactic acid bacteria do not participate directly in phytate degradation but provide favorable conditions for the endogenous cereal phytase activity by lowering the pH value." And for those of us tracking the "how long does proper fermentation take," the results above took 24 hours ... in dough. Dough has already been processed a bit, so if I person is fermenting whole grains their results will likely vary. Here is a link to the page with that citation and qualified access to the 2007 study: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf063507n

 

[Beekissed]

I don't think that's a real issue for us ... but I could be wrong.

ETA: a little survey of science studying this question. http://www.thenourishinggourmet.com/2010/09/reducing-phytic-acid-in-grains-and-legumes.html

It seems low heat enhances the process. It's high heat that's the problem. You'd have to read the specific study I referenced earlier to see how the "heat" variable was applied, but it must have been high heat.

My guess is commodity grains are treated as little as possible, if at all. But I have people I could ask. If I feel like it ...

From what I understand about processed poultry feeds they are merely steamed so they can be extruded or formed into forms that are easier to dispense. I don't know how hot that process would be.

 

[triplepurpose]

I'm relatively new to the process of fermenting feed, but I'm familiar with the principles of fermented foods for people (common to all cultures and all times in history--except this one I guess). It seems to me like the fermentation oughta be a win regardless--I mean, if the grain is already rich in nutrients, the fermentation and soaking should make them more available, and even if your feed is somewhat denatured, fermentation should still yield a better product.

Yet obviously, the less denatured and processed the feedstuffs the better.

And about the potatoes and stuff, you still can get ones that sprout--if they're organic, or sometimes even if they aren't. Those treatments to prevent sprouting aren't allowed in OG regulations, and even some conventional producers don't use them--right now I have a cultivar of sweetpotatoes going strong for several years that I started from a conventionally grown root I got at the grocery store. Just stuck it in water and snapped off the slips! It's nice to know there's still hope...

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Also: Phytase is a common additive in animal feeds.

 

[bluebirdnanny]

thanks bee with 17 chickens how big  should the chicken house be

I have a 10 by 16 Woods style open air coop I built and though the plans say "up to 40" I won't keep any more than 20 in there and they also get free range daily while I am home. I think anything less sets you up for health issues and behavioral issues like 'hen pecking'....

 

[carnivore]

Also: Phytase is a common additive in animal feeds.

OK, now I'm really confused! (and I didn't need any help with that to begin with)!
Are PHYTASE and PHYTATE the same thing? I thought phytase degradation was a good thing, and one of the things we are trying to accomplish with fermentation?
If so, why would they ADD phytase to animal feeds? Isn't it the phytase degradation that increases the nutrition? Wouldn't adding phytase DECREASE the nutrition?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

OK, now I'm really confused! (and I didn't need any help with that to begin with)!
Are PHYTASE and PHYTATE the same thing? I thought phytase degradation was a good thing, and one of the things we are trying to accomplish with fermentation?
If so, why would they ADD phytase to animal feeds? Isn't it the phytase degradation that increases the nutrition? Wouldn't adding phytase DECREASE the nutrition?

Welllllllllllll ... you really could type exactly that into google and get an immediate answer. Or read one of the links I provided.

One is the antinutrient we want to get rid of, the other is the chemical that gets rid of it ... if circumstances are right, like the low pH of a batch of fermentation.

I bet now you can guess which is which.

(I didn't know the specifics until I read those links earlier today.)

 

[pdirt]

OK, now I'm really confused! (and I didn't need any help with that to begin with)!
Are PHYTASE and PHYTATE the same thing? I thought phytase degradation was a good thing, and one of the things we are trying to accomplish with fermentation?
If so, why would they ADD phytase to animal feeds? Isn't it the phytase degradation that increases the nutrition? Wouldn't adding phytase DECREASE the nutrition?

Phytate or phytic acid occurs naturally in many grains. Some consider it an anti nutrient as it blocks some mineral uptake in the digestive tract, especially iron.

Phytase is an enzyme that specifically breaks down phytate. Adding it to feed will help the animal absorb more minerals.

Soaking any phytate containing grain will break down most if not all of the phytate in 8-12 hours. By soaking, you are essentially starting the fermentation process.

This applies to humans as well. I just made buckwheat/sorghum/brown rice flours pancakes on Sunday. I mixed the flours and water in a bowl and let it sit overnight. In the morning I add the rest of the ingredients, such as eggs and baking soda and powder. Delicious! I've been doing this for a few years now and I really can tell a difference, they sit better in my belly.