Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[Beekissed]

Hear, hear!

 

[KYTinpusher]

That's interesting, Bruce. I think someone else on the thread had reported an initial drop in egg production, so it will be interesting to see if that is temporary or if this is what will happen on FF. I can't imagine the same feed with the same nutrients~with fermentation being the only change~could result in a drop in laying.

Should be interesting to see if anyone shows an increase in laying.

My flock is showing a slow increase but their situation is not normal and it could merely be their improved nutrition and health.

Anyone else have a drop in laying after switching to FF?

I started feeding FF a couple of days ago. My girls were already slowing down, so it may only be coincidence, but they have almost stopped laying. I have gotten 3 eggs in 2 days from 18 layers - I was getting 12 - 14. I have changed a few other things in the last couple of days preparing for the cold weather, and it has been gray and raining a lot, so I'm sure that is contributing to it.

I started my FF with kefir, something most of my birds have had pretty regularly growing up. I just haven't had time to keep up with it the last couple of months. All of them, including the ducks, devoured it when I started them on it - the dishes were so clean I wondered if the dog had gotten to them!. I am fermenting the same feed that they have always gotten - it is made with whole organic grains that are mixed and milled locally. Once I get this down, I plan to have the feed store leave the grains whole and I'll just buy the mix without it being milled. I also plan to add alfalfa nuggets and kelp meal. In a couple of weeks when my youngest are old enough, I will add some egg shells to the mixture also.

I have been thinking about the FF idea for quite a while, but this thread got me kick-started into actually starting it. I got the idea from reading about the Bresse chickens from France. The Greenfire Farms description of them says they are finished on milk and grains. It could be that simple, but since I have been reading about fermenting foods in kefir overnight to make the nutrients more available, I wondered if that is what the French are doing. I had planned to try that next year with our extra roos when our cow has her calf

and we have more milk than we know what to do with, but you guys taught me how to start and keep it going without going through a ton of milk. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

On the BOSS - do you use shelled or in the shell?

 

[galanie]

That's interesting, Bruce.  I think someone else on the thread had reported an initial drop in egg production, so it will be interesting to see if that is temporary or if this is what will happen on FF.  I can't imagine the same feed with the same nutrients~with fermentation being the only change~could result in a drop in laying. 

Should be interesting to see if anyone shows an increase in laying. 

My flock is showing a slow increase but their situation is not normal and it could merely be their improved nutrition and health. 

Anyone else have a drop in laying after switching to FF? 

 

First of all, Bruce, calf manna is expensive but a little goes a long way. I started supplementing their food with calf manna in August and saw a nearly immediate, almost dramatic rise in laying. Then comes along September and I restart FF. One was in a heavy molt, one went broody. So of course there's fewer eggs. But even taking that into consideration, they are laying just a tiny bit less. I think it's the time of year because they otherwise look great and are eating like hogs.

I'm giving them an 18% grower with a bit of calf manna mixed in. About like a handful per large feed scoop. Those scoops look to hold something like a half gallon?

 

[pichuris]

Here is my setup:

I've come away from using the collanders on the right just this week. I purchased "medium stackable totes" from WallyMart on the left. It literally has cut time from 45 minutes to 15 minutes. For small batches the collanders work great but on a bigger scale I love the totes

.


I drilled multiple holes in the bottom of the tote only where the holes will sit inside the other tote when stacked. Same thing with the sides. You will see only on the two sides that sit directly above the bottom tote have holes.



Here is a closer shot of the stacked totes and you can see it draining into the bottom tote. When I get up in the morning I'll run downstairs pull out the top tote, stack and go about my morning business.


This is what it looks like after draining for an hour. There is some liquid on the right and left side where there are no holes drilled but its very minimal and not a big deal at all.


This is what it looks like after I've added the new feed and set inside to do its thing. I'll then cover this with cheese cloth which I failed to take a picture of. I put elastic on the cheese cloth so it fits like a shower cap. These totes didn't come with a lid which would have been nice but with the ease and time of this system it was an ok trade.

 

[colburg]

First of all, I would like to say thank you to all who participate in this thread. I have really enjoyed it, and have learned so much!!

The only experience I've ever had with fermenting is making wine the "old fasion way" (no yeast, just fruit, sugar, water and time). I make it in gallon glass jars, and love to watch it "work", it looks like it's boiling! That being said, I started my feed to ferment this past Monday evening, in a 2 gallon plastic bucket (food grade from the grocery store deli). The feed I used is a half and half mix of 5 grain scratch and layer's mash. It is more of a paste than a grain/water mix (if that makes any sense).

Anyway, when I stirred it last night and this morning, I stood there a couple of minutes and could hear, what sounded like it "working". BUT, I'm not sure if the air bubbles I heard (and saw seeping to the top) are from it actually "working" or from air I stirred into it. It does feel "airy" when I stir it, but I"m still not sure. It doesn't smell much different than it did when I started, but it smells good. I almost tasted it this morning!

So, after that loooong drawn out rambling, here's the question: Do you think it's ready, or should I give it a couple more days?

Thanks in advance,

Julie

I started a batch fermenting a few days ago. Gave it 24 hrs and it wasn't bubbling, didn't have the sour smell, or white film on top. But, I just started sccoping out of it anyway. They loved it. Pecked their wet feed tray clean even though dry was still available. The next feeding it had a minor sour smell, but still no bubbles and they gobbled it up. Same with the third feeding. The fourth feeding though, could actually see big bubbles coming up, and it had nice sour smell. I actually had to double the number of feedings yesterday.

So, long story short, you can start feeding it, even if it's not ready. It'll get going soon enough.

 

[colburg]

WOW!! Tons of great info. I actually read every single post on here.

About a week ago, y'all were talking about yeast vs ACV bacteria so I did MORE research. From what I understand, it's a 2-phase process using BOTH yeast and bacteria. Here's a link to the best write-up I found on the subject. Even though they're trying to sell you something, the same theory applies.

http://www.chaffhaye.com/fermentation-process

I also found the stages of fermentation in the silage process. Same process, different product.

Six phases of silage fermentation and storage.
Phase I Phase II Phase III Phase IV Phase V Phase VI
Age of Silage 0-2 days 2-3 days 3-4 days 4-21 days 21 days-
Activity Cell respiration;
production of
CO2, heat and
water Production
of acetic acid
and lactic
acid ethanol Lactic
acid
formation Lactic
acid
formation Material
storage Aerobic
decomposition
on re-exposure
to oxygen
Temperature Change* 69-90 F 90-84 F 84 F 84 F 84 F 84 F
pH Change 6.5-6.0 6.0-5.0 5.0-4.0 4.0 4.0 4.0-7.0
Produced Acetic acid
and lactic
acid bacteria Lactic
acid
bacteria Lactic
acid
bacteria Mold and
yeast activity

I think that's why it may take some of our FF batches longer to start fermenting. Wild yeast from the air needs to multiply in mash and start the process before the ACV can really start to work.

I think I kinda understand the process, but if I'm way off base here please correct me.

 

[Tivona]

That's interesting, Bruce. I think someone else on the thread had reported an initial drop in egg production, so it will be interesting to see if that is temporary or if this is what will happen on FF. I can't imagine the same feed with the same nutrients~with fermentation being the only change~could result in a drop in laying.

Should be interesting to see if anyone shows an increase in laying.

My flock is showing a slow increase but their situation is not normal and it could merely be their improved nutrition and health.

Anyone else have a drop in laying after switching to FF?

My ducks had a brief drop in egg production when I started them on the ff. It took just under 2 weeks for everything to get back to normal on production. I am now having the same steady amount I did before switching their feed to the ff, so perhaps their bodies just need to get used to the change or maybe they just don't eat as much the first few days while they get used to the flavor causing the brief downturn in eggs.

 

[Miss Lydia]

Well today when I sat the ff down for my ducks they walked over nibbled and walked away. so I cheated and added some thawed peas to it mixed it up and watched well they started eating it then. I think my ducks are way to picky. I need to cut back on mealworms maybe then they would eat the ff, My chickens love it. Geese still not sure.

 

[Lacy Blues]

WOW!! Tons of great info. I actually read every single post on here.

About a week ago, y'all were talking about yeast vs ACV bacteria so I did MORE research. From what I understand, it's a 2-phase process using BOTH yeast and bacteria. Here's a link to the best write-up I found on the subject. Even though they're trying to sell you something, the same theory applies.

http://www.chaffhaye.com/fermentation-process

I also found the stages of fermentation in the silage process. Same process, different product.

Six phases of silage fermentation and storage.
Phase I Phase II Phase III Phase IV Phase V Phase VI
Age of Silage 0-2 days 2-3 days 3-4 days 4-21 days 21 days-
Activity Cell respiration;
production of
CO2, heat and
water Production
of acetic acid
and lactic
acid ethanol Lactic
acid
formation Lactic
acid
formation Material
storage Aerobic
decomposition
on re-exposure
to oxygen
Temperature Change* 69-90 F 90-84 F 84 F 84 F 84 F 84 F
pH Change 6.5-6.0 6.0-5.0 5.0-4.0 4.0 4.0 4.0-7.0
Produced Acetic acid
and lactic
acid bacteria Lactic
acid
bacteria Lactic
acid
bacteria Mold and
yeast activity

I think that's why it may take some of our FF batches longer to start fermenting. Wild yeast from the air needs to multiply in mash and start the process before the ACV can really start to work.

I think I kinda understand the process, but if I'm way off base here please correct me.

Thank you for this info. I had been wondering about silage and exactly what it is. I'm thinking that next year I may plant some Crimson Clover (because its supposed to be good for silage) and harvest and bag it for winter green feed for my birds. I've seen farmers around here chop up their corn and corn stalks and put them into HUGE silage piles covered in white plastic. They don't vacuum seal the piles but after just a couple weeks, they feed from it and it just looks like a dried grass product. Good for cows but I'm wondering about chickens. Would it be too much fiber? If I kept cutting the clover while it was short, would the clover survive regular trimming and would the silage product be something the chickens would even eat?

Any thoughts?

 

[colburg]

Thank you for this info. I had been wondering about silage and exactly what it is. I'm thinking that next year I may plant some Crimson Clover (because its supposed to be good for silage) and harvest and bag it for winter green feed for my birds. I've seen farmers around here chop up their corn and corn stalks and put them into HUGE silage piles covered in white plastic. They don't vacuum seal the piles but after just a couple weeks, they feed from it and it just looks like a dried grass product. Good for cows but I'm wondering about chickens. Would it be too much fiber? If I kept cutting the clover while it was short, would the clover survive regular trimming and would the silage product be something the chickens would even eat?

Any thoughts?

I started with a simple reply, then it got longer and longer, then really long. So I cut it out and here's what's left.

For growability in your region, start here. http://www.sare.org/publications/covercrops/covercrops.pdf
Pages 66-72 have great comparative info on ryes, wheats, clovers, peas, vetch, and lots more.
Crimson clover specifics are on page 130.

For mineral composition, http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01615.html

Potential poison? Check here. http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/comlist.html (Kinda iffy on this one. It says not to feed certain clovers or vetch to chickens, but I've read of many, many people feeding their chickens all kinds of clovers and vetches.)

DISCLAIMER: I haven't done what I'm about to tell you. It's just my plans and what I've read.

FYI: I have 5 acres of ryegrass, bromegrass, orchardgrass; 1.5 acres alfalfa; 4 acres white clover; 3 acres yellow clover; all planted in my orchard(2 weeks ago, barely sprouting). I'm testing them for Nitrogen return back into the soil, ground aeration, soil stability, shade tolerance, drought tolerance, flood tolerance. SO, my answers aren't completely full of BULL. I just haven't tested everything on chickens YET.

Simple answers. Too much fiber? It's roughly the same as alfalfa. There isn't a line for Crimson on the mineral composition page, I looked at the highest CF(crude fiber) for all the clovers. Just offer the silaged product along side what you're feeding now. Or, my plans are to add some chopped clover and alfalfa to my FF buckets and just let it ferment together. Don't know if this'll work, but somewhere in the last 1500 posts, people have fermented alfalfa cubes no problemo. So this should as well.

Cutting to keep it short? Clover is grazed by ranchers all over the place. It only needs to establish a good root system before turning them out on it so they don't pull it up by the roots. It should easily survive regular trimmings, just don't go as short as you would in your yard. Maybe the highest lawnmower setting?

Clover Silage Chicken Eatability? Edibility? This one I have no idea. Did a quick Bing search and just reading highlights, it looks doable for chickens. When I planted a whole 2 weeks ago, I was testing mostly for the orchard and fresh vittles for the chickens. Tests will be expanded to fermenting with current feed mix.

Hope this helps.