Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[yinepu]

I have been feeding fermented feed since late last summer. Chicks, growing stock, breeding stock, layers. Chickens and ducks both. I have butchered out quite a few birds, from 4 months old (which have gotten only fermented feed their whole life) to a rooster over a year old that ate fermented feed these past 6 or 8 months.

Not a single liver looked abnormal, all were bright red and healthy looking, even the older rooster's.

My feed never smells even faintly of alcohol, it smells mildly of vinegar. I feed out 2/3s of the bucket each day, leaving a third of the feed to keep the fermentation going. Occasionally I may mix up too much and it may take two days to feed it down to that level.

I don't make mine sloppy wet because it is a mash and has a lot of fines. I mix it the consistancy of peanut butter cookie dough or slighter wetter than that and it's that consistancy when I feed it out. I used both home made unpasturized apple cider vinegar and whey from yogurt when I started.

As usual, your mileage may vary.

THANK YOU!

That's exactly how I mix mine too.. thick cause I have so darn many birds to feed and I go through several 5 gallon buckets of feed at a feeding.

and I figured that if the livers looked bad SOMEONE in this thread would have said so.. But thank you again for confirming that they look healthy!

 

[Leahs Mom]

but... this thread was started for meat birds.. which have a normal life expectancy of 8 weeks or so...
so in that context i would think it wouldn't matter IF there was alcohol in the feed or not...

That is a good point. If you're talking about meat birds it doesn't really matter as the life is so short.

When I express concern over fermenting with yeast rather than LABs, it is only for chickens that are layers that are kept long-term.

Do realize, however, that the studies that were done showing the benefits of fermenting feed for chickens were done on feed fermented with Lactic Acid Bacteria - not yeast.

 

[Kilsharion]

That is a good point. If you're talking about meat birds it doesn't really matter as the life is so short.

When I express concern over fermenting with yeast rather than LABs, it is only for chickens that are layers that are kept long-term.

Do realize, however, that the studies that were done showing the benefits of fermenting feed for chickens were done on feed fermented with Lactic Acid Bacteria - not yeast.

I have to disagree. Several were done with water soaked feed containing natural sugars - that were in open containers. At least, the ones I've read. Considering what I've had to pay to read the things quite recently thanks to the explosion here a few weeks ago, I'm painfully aware of what they were saying.

It may be that the studies you have read were for LAB feeds only. However, the ones I've read were open container starters...which means wild yeast is highly probable.

The most common in an open container is generally wild yeast with the occasional lactobacillus making an appearance.

BTW - some LABs have been used in fermentation of beers (such as WLP677) and can produce not only alcohol (and good amounts of it) but carbonation as well.

Again, all posted herein is solely my opinion and only worth the time it takes to read.

 

[yinepu]

Quote:
ok... even with only those particular studies... I still don't think that alcohol is an issue

for example: I've made kombuchan and kefir (both milk and water kefir)

for the kombucha you use the kombucha scoby, lots of sugar and tea.. it takes me a good solid week to turn that sweet tea into a drinkable kombucha (and that's even with Texas heat).. plus several more weeks once it's bottled to even get a "fizz" and even get a high enough alcohol content for you to tell it has any

that's WEEKS and LOTS of sugar

My feed is only fermenting for 24 hours then is diluted down.. no extra sugar being added

so if it takes the kombucha weeks... why should the minimal amount of alcohol which forms in 24 hours be a concern to layers when others have reported 0 issues with liver problems in birds they have butchered?


With the milk kefir I have never gotten any alcohol taste at all.. it goes from being milk and kefir grains.. to a thick kefir.. to separated to where you can drain off the whey and make cheese.. mine has never gotten to an 'alcoholic" stage even after several days... once it hits separation I use the whey for other things and have already started a new batch with the grains

The water kefir CAN go to an alcoholic stage much easier.. it's the water kefir grains, water, lemon, and a good bit of raw sugar (and I like mine with a slice or two of real ginger with a few sugar dates tossed in... but that's besides the point.. lol.. I like the taste of ginger ale!)
it takes a good solid week to get a fizz and a bit longer before it takes on any alcoholic taste


so the only thing the ones which go "alcoholic" easily have in common is time and lots of sugar..

for the fermented feed I'm not letting it sit for weeks without being diluted every single day... and I am not adding cups and cups of sugar
So I really don't see where all the alcohol is coming from that you state is happening.. sure there is a teeny amount.. but I don't think it's enough to do any damage. If it were I'm sure others would have mentioned it when they butcher out their birds


I tend to think of it as being the difference between drinking one glass of wine a day as opposed to someone who drinks glass after glass of hard liquor.. the one glass of wine is supposed to be good for you.. where being an alcoholic causes the issues
I've even read studies where they say that a beer or two every day is good for you as well... (though I'm not going to drink that stuff regardless of how many benefits it supposedly has

.. lol.. i don't even drink wine except for on very special occasions)!
Even at that... I don't think enough alcohol is forming in 24 or even 48 hours to matter...


so I was curious and used google.. found this for making beer : http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/edible-innovations/beer4.htm
"Fermentation
Fermentation is the process by which yeast converts the glucose in the wort to ethyl alcohol and carbon dioxide gas -- giving the beer both its alcohol content and its carbonation. To begin the fermentation process, the cooled wort is transferred into a fermentation vessel to which the yeast has already been added. If the beer being made is an ale, the wort will be maintained at a constant temperature of 68 F (20 C) for about two weeks. If the beer is a lager, the temperature will be maintained at 48 F (9 C) for about six weeks. Since fermentation produces a substantial amount of heat, the tanks must be cooled constantly to maintain the proper temperature."
so that is after they have processed the grains (sprouting and heating) to release the sugars

and apparently making mead takes a good 10 days for fermentation.. wine seems to be as long.. and rice wine takes several weeks of "checking"
also: (can't post the link since they have a forum.. but it's easy to find on google)
"
How Long Does it Take?

It will be about four weeks before you can drink the beer you make, but the actual time from boil to beer depends on the style of beer you're making.

• Brewing: 2 Hours
• Fermentation: 2 weeks
• Bottle Your Beer: 1 Hour
• Bottle Conditioning (allows beer to carbonate): 2-4 Weeks"

 

[Leahs Mom]

Oh..... so you're talking about SOAKING FEED rather than FERMENTING FEED. (I didn't realize that!)

In that case it also doesn't matter. Soaking feed is a GREAT way to break down the phytic acid and other anti-nutrients to make it more digestible. A wonderfully healthy practice!

What I've been talking about is fermenting feed...where it continues over the long-term just adding back in fresh food from time to time. Totally different issues in that process!

 

[yinepu]

sorry to burst your bubble..... but mine is still fermenting.. just not for weeks and weeks.. it still bubbles (a sign of fermentation) and still gets the white film on the top:
from google (relating to beer.. but nonetheless): "Signs of fermentation include bubbles (burps) in the airlock and a layer of foam called krausen on top of the beer."

Plus others on here who DO "ferment" for more than 24 hours STILL have reported ZERO issues with liver problems...

fermentation begins when the grain starts to bubble...

 

[Kilsharion]

so the only thing the ones which go "alcoholic" easily have in common is time and lots of sugar..

for the fermented feed I'm not letting it sit for weeks without being diluted every single day... and I am not adding cups and cups of sugar

Alcohol is the byproduct of yeast....ie: when you are drinking beer, that alcohol you love so much is pee, essentially. Yeast pee. Fun times. Some forms of LABs also secrete alcohol. However, to actually get alcohol, you must have sugar. It's what the yeast thrives on. Most anything with a carbohydrate will have some amount of convertible sugar in it, which is why grains do so well with our little fermentation fun. It's why you can make a honey mead and never have a single grain present - and, boy does it pack a punch. Sneaky little bugger. It's all about the sugars - and, the more sugar, the larger the colony, the more active the colony and the more alcohol.

Because most here maybe kick start their fermentation with a tbsp of sugar (sometimes it just needs some help), the only remaining sugars to be consumed are the carbs and maybe the wee bit of molasses that is found in some feeds (mine as an example). However, the two things working against any real alcohol developing are the two things Yinepu just pointed out...time and amount.

We have time going for maybe 24 to 48 hours - that is just enough to initialize fermentation. It's not nearly enough time to get a significant amount of alcohol.

Sourdough starter is a good example of a yeast and sugar culture that ferments but contains minor amounts of alcohol. As a matter of fact, if I recall correctly, Yinepu kicked her FF off with her sourdough starter. Me, I used baker's yeast on one set. I used champagne yeast on another set (it was all I had available when the proverbial shtf). I used ACV with mother; however, I had very, very little at the time and needed to get my feed launched. It works fine and my alcohol content is nominal. I do not have to add extra sugars at the beginning because my feed has molasses.

The mother is important not just to start the feed going (though it often works well for that) but for the probiotics in it. If the mother doesn't have enough clout, however, adding yeast is just peachy for the chickens. With a 24 to 48 hour turn around time, there is nothing at all in the feed to harm and a lot to help the chickens. The micro and macro nutrients that they have easier access to digesting due to the fermentation that has begun is well worth the effort; and, the alcohol present is hardly even enough to register on a scale, much less cause harms to the chickens - even baby chicks.

Just to put most minds at ease who may be worried, I'll measure the specific gravity of my FF tonight when I get home (running late for work, right now).

As always - what I have posted is solely my opinion and only worth the time invested in reading it.

 

[yinepu]

Quote:

from what I have read that's why the major beer brewing companies sprout the grains first.. to help release the sugars which they need to create the alcohol...

 

[tackleberry]

Ok, my brags acv came in to the store and to make a long story short it got frozen. Will it being frozen for a day kill the mother that is in it????

 

[yinepu]

Ok, my brags acv came in to the store and to make a long story short it got frozen. Will it being frozen for a day kill the mother that is in it????

frozen solid?

My mother used to keep the big glass jug of vinegar with the mother in it out on the back porch.. pretty much year round.
Now we always made our own vinegar.. but even after having ice crystals in it it bounced back

I don't remember it ever getting frozen solid before though.. even if it did I would think some of the bacteria would have survived.