Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[Leahs Mom]

Forgive me for poking fun at this, but all I keep thinking is that you are all making little alcoholics out of your chicks.

They sound like they are acting like drug addicts jonesing for a fix!
OK, I'll shut up and go back to standing in the corner now, but that picture of the chicks

and attacking her to get into the bucket was just too much!

Thanks again for all the wonderful posts.

You might want to take a look at the series that explains the 2 different kinds of fermentation. If you're fermenting for chicken feed it shouldn't be producing alcohol... Check out the articles here - it will make things a little more clear. Here's another short explanation: (Hope that's helpful!)

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/644300/fermenting-feed-for-meat-birds/5070#post_10768220



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https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/644300/fermenting-feed-for-meat-birds/5080#post_10768765 Edited to fix link.

 

[Kilsharion]

Hi all. New member. First post here... and thanks for all the amazing insights and posts. Because of the volume and quality of all your posts, I have wiggled out onto the thin ice of my ignorance and purchased my first 15 Plymouth Barred Rock layers, and 29 CX BBQers.

We are doing this all indoors right now because we are not sure how to put them outside yet in the cold temps. Anyway, without rambling too much here, I stumbled upon this thread while searching for feed protein requirements since my local feed supply has low energy 27% protein game fowl feed as well as 20% chick starter, and I was wondering at what point it is ok or is it even recommended to switch to that at all. Anyway, I have really enjoyed reading this thread as it developed, but I keep chuckling harder and harder as I read of the chicken's responses... and the last paragraph of the above just left me

!

Forgive me for poking fun at this, but all I keep thinking is that you are all making little alcoholics out of your chicks.

They sound like they are acting like drug addicts jonesing for a fix!
OK, I'll shut up and go back to standing in the corner now, but that picture of the chicks

and attacking her to get into the bucket was just too much!

Thanks again for all the wonderful posts.

Welcome to the thread.

There's no addiction happening other than for tasty food. My husband swears the house smells like a brewery (like when I am making beer or wine) since fermentation gives off similar aromas regardless of what's being fermented....well, pardon me, fish meal and meats being fermented smell absolutely foul. I know what you mean about finding it funny. My husband keeps telling me that as soon as he sees them too drunk to sit on their roosts he's going to put an end to it. He's teasing, of course, but it is always good for a laugh.

27% protein is more than your birds will ever need. And, once they start laying, you're going to want to make absolutely certain that they get oyster shell free choice. Some people feed starter to their chickens all their lives. Others reduce to lower protein feeds once the chickens start laying. However, game bird feed is just way too much raw protein for your chickens. Too much protein causes stressors on the chicken's body that they just can't handle for extended periods of time. So, be careful of your proteins and be aware that proteins are increased in fermented feeds, particularly if you want a long lived, productive bird.

Has anyone ever asked, or know if the chicken poo from FF breaks down faster in the composter seeing as how it went in the beak end already somewhat broken down? OK, I am giggling as I write this...but I am really curious?

I've never given it much thought, actually.

 

[yinepu]

Quote: Edited to fix link.

I have a question.. that so far I haven't seen an answer for.. and if I missed it I apologize

You state that the alcohol will adversely affect their livers over long periods of time... how long is "long" ?

 

[Leahs Mom]

I don't have an answer for that.

In a small animal like a chicken it wouldn't take long for liver damage to occur from regular, continued alcohol consumption.

I'd like to do a necropsy or 2 on some of these birds to see the condition of their livers....

ETA: I don't know that anyone has done necropsies on a regular basis to see at what stage or if they begin to show damage. It surely would be an interesting study, however.

 

[Leahs Mom]

Another variable is the LEVEL OF ALCOHOL in the feed. Some may have a lower/higher level than others and that will affect how quickly damage would be done as well.

 

[Kilsharion]

I have a question.. that so far I haven't seen an answer for.. and if I missed it I apologize

You state that the alcohol will adversely affect their livers over long periods of time... how long is "long" ?

A heck of a lot longer than we tend to keep most meat birds alive.

And, with the turn around of 24 to 48 hours, the amount of alcohol in the FF that we are dealing with is insignificant.

Be advised, though, any and all fermentation does contain some alcohol. You can't get away from it. Even lactobacillus will result in some alcohol by product. It's impossible to avoid it all together. The difference is the control of the additional yeasts that increase the amount of alcohol. Most on this forum have a difficult time even getting the most basic fermentation going. The idea of having a full blown hooch that is able to truly be drained off to create a viable alcohol rich product is not unrealistic; however, most of the individuals on this forum go through their entire FF product within 24 hours. This is not enough time to get a full hooch processed in the manner required for real alcohol content. The method people are following in this thread (ie: just sitting out at roughly room temperature) is not one that would be cause for alcohol level concern. At least, I've never been able to get a solid alcohol product in ≤ 24 hours.



Of course, that's just my opinion and is - as always - only worth the time invested in reading it.

 

[yinepu]

I don't have an answer for that. I know chickens are small and it probably wouldn't take long for damage to be done.

I honestly worry about some of these birds and what they're being fed.

In a small animal like a chicken it wouldn't take long for liver damage to occur from regular, continued alcohol consumption. If folks keep using yeasts for fermenting feed, it may be doing the birds more damage than good.

I'd like to do a necropsy or 2 on some of these birds to see the condition of their livers....

ETA: I don't know that anyone has done necropsies on a regular basis to see at what stage they begin to show damage. It surely would be an interesting study, however.

but... this thread was started for meat birds.. which have a normal life expectancy of 8 weeks or so...
so in that context i would think it wouldn't matter IF there was alcohol in the feed or not...


Now.. I would think that the people who have been feeding it to their layer flocks for years would have noticed birds keeling over or abnormal livers when those older birds were butchered.. yet I didn't read anything like that in this thread and I did read it from start to finish when I first posted...

My thinking is that the feed is diluted every day with water and more grain.. it isn't in a still.. and it isn't a strong ferment created over days or weeks .. it's changed up every day.. sure some is left behind in the buckets to act as a catalyst.. but it is being diluted every day ... since I don't smell alcohol in my feed buckets I really don't think the alcohol level is very high at all.. my birds have never staggered around after eating it... so, personally I don't see where the alcohol content is that big of a concern when you gather together all the evidence

if some of the long term feeders had reported their birds dropping dead, bad livers or staggering birds.. then maybe it would have raised a few red flags for me

Since even my layers are butchered every few years.. I don't think the alcohol level is really a big concern

 

[yinepu]

Quote:

Be advised, though, any and all fermentation does contain some alcohol. You can't get away from it. Even lactobacillus will result in some alcohol by product. It's impossible to avoid it all together. The difference is the control of the additional yeasts that increase the amount of alcohol. Most on this forum have a difficult time even getting the most basic fermentation going. The idea of having a full blown hooch that is able to truly be drained off to create a viable alcohol rich product is not unrealistic; however, most of the individuals on this forum go through their entire FF product within 24 hours. This is not enough time to get a full hooch processed in the manner required for real alcohol content. The method people are following in this thread (ie: just sitting out at roughly room temperature) is not one that would be cause for alcohol level concern. At least, I've never been able to get a solid alcohol product in ≤ 24 hours.



Of course, that's just my opinion and is - as always - only worth the time invested in reading it.

yeah.. that's what I was thinking as well.. like I said.. i've never even smelled alcohol in my feed.. and I have a pretty sensitive nose!

 

[maryhysong]

I have been feeding fermented feed since late last summer. Chicks, growing stock, breeding stock, layers. Chickens and ducks both. I have butchered out quite a few birds, from 4 months old (which have gotten only fermented feed their whole life) to a rooster over a year old that ate fermented feed these past 6 or 8 months.

Not a single liver looked abnormal, all were bright red and healthy looking, even the older rooster's.

My feed never smells even faintly of alcohol, it smells mildly of vinegar. I feed out 2/3s of the bucket each day, leaving a third of the feed to keep the fermentation going. Occasionally I may mix up too much and it may take two days to feed it down to that level.

I don't make mine sloppy wet because it is a mash and has a lot of fines. I mix it the consistancy of peanut butter cookie dough or slighter wetter than that and it's that consistancy when I feed it out. I used both home made unpasturized apple cider vinegar and whey from yogurt when I started.

As usual, your mileage may vary.

 

[Toast n Jelly]

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And this is in regard to what and which post are you responding to?