Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[Dipstick]

WOW... I did not intend to start a fight on here... I was just poking fun. Sorry for making waves.

That said, and please forgive me for sounding like a know-it-all, but after I just read the following web pages, I feel correct and emboldened to spout info which I have no actual experience with... and that from the scientific perspective... (in other words, I read it on the web so now I think I'm an expert

... Oh brother!

)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid_bacteria

It is the yeasts which digest the sugars from the carbs in the feed and produce alcohol.
It is the Acetic acid bacterium which then digests that alcohol from the yeast stage and produces Acetic acid.

So according to the technical information, it seems to me that the proper answer for truly FF is that you want a longer multi-stage process whereby you first add yeast, and when the yeast is done, you add the ACV. Both require time to process things effectively.

Interestingly, according to the following pages there is a difference between Lactic acid and Acetic acid in that Lactic acid converts the sugars directly to Lactic acid, where as stated above, the Acetic bacterium convert alcohol not sugar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_(food)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid_bacteria

This begs the following questions:

Since some are using LAB to create Lactic acid, and some are using ACV to produce Acetic acid, which is better and why?

And is there a benefit to doing BOTH separately and then combining at the trough?

Since the ACV requires alcohol not sugar to convert, and yeast and or LAB produces the required Alcohol, then it seems that only adding ACV would do nothing without already existing presence of yeasts, either natural or added, since it cannot process sugars directly on its own.

Also, since the Acetic bacterium actually feed on the alcohol in the mash, the logical conclusion is that by adding the ACV the whole issue of drunk chickens is moot because the ACV breaks down the available alcohol before it can accumulate to sufficient levels to be a problem.

Does this make any sense to anyone other than me?

Either way, the times required to actually ferment anything to any REAL degree is more than 24 hours, though there is fermentation happening naturally all the time. This begs the question:

Has anyone done research or read any research which defines the time feed is allowed to ferment before it sees the maximum nutritional result... and at what point is it considered more than just wet or soaked feed?

I hate being a geek... but I yam what I yam!
OK, back to putting my nose in the corner.

 

[Kilsharion]

Also, since the Acetic bacterium actually feed on the alcohol in the mash, the logical conclusion is that by adding the ACV the whole issue of drunk chickens is moot because the ACV breaks down the available alcohol before it can accumulate to sufficient levels to be a problem.

All the other about the acids is pretty spot on, so don't think I'm disregarding it...I'm just responding to this one point. Given the length of time that the feed sits, right now, for everyone on this thread, there's not enough alcohol available to be a problem. I'll be posting the alcohol content of my feed tonight when I get home and can plop my hydrometer into the feed hooch.

The feed I have sitting, right now, has no ACV in it. I ran out and don't always worry about putting ACV with mother in it. I also have cracked corn and scratch grains in the bucket, today. I think my husband may have thrown his cereal left overs in there this morning, too - which is full of sugar...So - Given that the alcohol levels will do nothing but go down from where I'm at, I'd say that it's a worst case scenario sitting in my bucket right this moment. Which is a good thing for the point of this exercise, anyway

My point being that even in a worst case scenario, with a feed that's sitting at or around 24 to 48 hours in a bucket is not going to have enough alcohol to be of any consequence. And, yes, it's absolutely fermenting. When I walk by I can see active bubbles forming and stirring it causes an eruption of activity. It has a great skin on it and the mother has formed nicely under the hooch and over the mash. It's definitely a fermentation happening, not just a soak.

What's best for maximum nutrition, I cannot say. However, this chart makes my point about alcohol levels even without me having to drive home and pop my hydrometer out of its case....



This one, too:



And, these are the results of deliberate alcohol oriented fermentation which means they are much higher in sugar content than our feed. Additionally, they are actively working against cutting back on alcohol reduction - where we tend to add things like ACV to our feed which counters the alcohol levels as you pointed out so well in your post.

 

[Kilsharion]

Ok, my brags acv came in to the store and to make a long story short it got frozen. Will it being frozen for a day kill the mother that is in it????

The mother should be fine. It would just go dormant. A little warm water and it should be fine. It may take a little longer to get going than otherwise; but, there should be no problem with it just because it was frozen.

 

[yinepu]

Quote:
that's what I was thinking..
it takes a lot to kill off ALL that bacteria...

I know ours would sit out on the back porch all winter and have ice crystals in it.. it would have to warm up and it was a little slow starting after it had "iced" .. but other wise was fine.

 

[tackleberry]

Thanks for the help. I have been feeding fermented food to the chick chick chickees for 3 dayd now and they love it. The other girls love it also. They have been eating more heartily, yet they havent been eating as much. Water consumption is down and their poop is firmer and doesnt smell so bad. I just hope fermenting with just yeast is ok for them till I can add the ACV.

 

[Kilsharion]

Ok - so....the SG of the batch of feed in the bucket right this second is .... 1.01

Understand...pure water is 1.00

Sugar makes it heavier so your hydrometer floats higher which would give you a higher number.

Alcohol is lighter, so your hydrometer floats lower which gives you a lower number.

When we start our soaks, it's pretty much dead on 1.00 no matter who we are, unless someone's dumping a few cups of sugar into their batch...which I don't think anyone is.

After 24 hours of sitting on my back porch, even with my husband's breakfast cereal having been dumped into the mix, the specific gravity has hardly budged...and, that budging was toward more sugar, not alcohol.

If we did the arithmetic for it...you subtract the final number from the starting number and divide by .00736 to get the alcohol by volume of whatever it is....so: 1.00 - 1.01 = -.01/.00736 = -1.35% ABV Please note - that's a negative 1.35%.

If I let the feed continue to ferment for the next several days and did not add anything to it, I may...eventually...have an alcoholic beverage. However, with the vinegar in there and the low sugar content...I just don't see the yeast winning out and actually giving me a solid alcoholic beverage.

But, safe to say that what I currently have is absolutely in no way a problem for my chickens.

As always - what is written herein is solely my opinion and only worth the time invested in reading it.

 

[yinepu]

Ok - so....the SG of the batch of feed in the bucket right this second is .... 1.01

Understand...pure water is 1.00

Sugar makes it heavier so your hydrometer floats higher which would give you a higher number.

Alcohol is lighter, so your hydrometer floats lower which gives you a lower number.

When we start our soaks, it's pretty much dead on 1.00 no matter who we are, unless someone's dumping a few cups of sugar into their batch...which I don't think anyone is.

After 24 hours of sitting on my back porch, even with my husband's breakfast cereal having been dumped into the mix, the specific gravity has hardly budged...and, that budging was toward more sugar, not alcohol.

If we did the arithmetic for it...you subtract the final number from the starting number and divide by .00736 to get the alcohol by volume of whatever it is....so: 1.00 - 1.01 = -.01/.00736 = -1.35% ABV Please note - that's a negative 1.35%.

If I let the feed continue to ferment for the next several days and did not add anything to it, I may...eventually...have an alcoholic beverage. However, with the vinegar in there and the low sugar content...I just don't see the yeast winning out and actually giving me a solid alcoholic beverage.

But, safe to say that what I currently have is absolutely in no way a problem for my chickens.

As always - what is written herein is solely my opinion and only worth the time invested in reading it.

aww.. I just enrolled all of them into AA...

thanks for posting that info.. like i said before I have a pretty sensitive nose .. and never smelled any alcohol in mine

 

[countrygirl74]

Thanks. I really like the LAB and it is easy to make. The whole Korean natural farming is so interesting. I would like to get better at the IMO but so far it isn't proving to be as easy as the LAB. but I am a notoriously neglagent composter so that is probably my issue w/ imo. lol

I find it all so intriguing as well. I am also working on the IMO's this Spring as I would like to use it in my garden and chicken/duck runs.

 

[countrygirl74]

Do you keep yours in the refrigerator or mix with molasses and keep it out?

I kept mine in the fridge in a big glass jug - it was easier at the time and I just put some in a spray bottle, diluted, when I need to use some.

 

[oddcluck]

Been reading this site (and forums) for quite some time but I am a newbie member. Started reading the FF thread and have figured out what some of the abbreviations are but there are soooo many pages that I would have to sit for several hours to read them all to figure out ALL the abbreviations. Could somebody help me out and tell me what IMO is? This forum is great because even us "seasoned" chicken folks can learn new things!