Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[Kassaundra]

Kassaundra, can you give a few more details about soaking the egg shells in vinegar? i'm very interested about this. how many egg shells in how much vinegar? how long? how you spray it on the plants? thank you very much.
Beekissed, i used to mix the chicken food with water because this is how i saw my mom doing it. i had no idea why it is better this way

. when i had turkeys, i added choped fresh alfalfa to my mix of cereals and i had great results. next year, when i had only chickens and ducks i tried when they were about one month old, they were not very interested and i gave up

. next time i wont.

Another recipe for water soluble calcium is made from eggshells. Collect several dozen eggshells, wash and take the inside membrane out. Crush them into 1/4″ pieces and brown in a frying pan over low heat. When evenly golden brown, place into BRV in a jar. The proportion of eggshells to BRV (brown rice vinegar but I use acv) is 1:10. The eggshells will emit bubbles when they are immersed in the vinegar. After a week, the vinegar should still be fairly clear and eggshells the same color. Pour off the liquid and store in a glass container. (dilute 20 parts water to 1 part vinegar for spraying on plants) ( I also never remove the membrane)

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
Funny you should mention this, brandislee, as I was researching natural sources of niacin and came across distiller's solubles as one. Seems this is the one of the residues of fermentation for the production of spirits. Contains most of the protein of the original grain and is an excellent supplement to diets of heavy milking cows.


Quote:
I don't know if it would still give the same level of nutrients or even the same kind if the liquid has not been distilled, but I'm wondering if our fermented fluid on these grains would be considered a type of stillage byproduct and have the same benefits?

 

[jenny_kap]

Another recipe for water soluble calcium is made from eggshells. Collect several dozen eggshells, wash and take the inside membrane out. Crush them into 1/4″ pieces and brown in a frying pan over low heat. When evenly golden brown, place into BRV in a jar. The proportion of eggshells to BRV (brown rice vinegar but I use acv) is 1:10. The eggshells will emit bubbles when they are immersed in the vinegar. After a week, the vinegar should still be fairly clear and eggshells the same color. Pour off the liquid and store in a glass container. (dilute 20 parts water to 1 part vinegar for spraying on plants) ( I also never remove the membrane)

thank you very much. on which plants do you use it and when? i'm sorry i'm coming with too many questions, but i'm pretty new to gardening and i want to learn natural, organic ways to grow my plants. thank you for your patience

 

[jenny_kap]

I didn't do this(feed FF) with my last batch of meaties but they ate pretty much what my layer flock ate....layer ration mixed with some whole grains. They had appropriate finishing weights and all were healthy and thriving. They free ranged with my flock.

The batch I'm raising now are weighting in~by the hatchery schedule standards~at the 4 wk. age and mine are 5 wks. They are one week behind on their weights(which was my goal..a slower grown, healthier bird) and I have used $41 in feed. One thread on here posted their feed cost for 50 CX at 5 wks had been $130. A big difference.

I will say that these birds of mine seem to be eating an enormous amount of bugs and worms during their foraging...this place is a gold mine for foraging birds. Maybe this winter was too warm to kill off some of the bugs? I don't know. But..who knows just how much supplemental protein is going on for my flock that wouldn't be obtained by others trying this method of feeding? Too many variables in this experiment to say for sure.

Here's the question I have about protein and the thought that this particular breed of chicken needs more protein to live and develop than do layer birds. Why is that, exactly? If a laying flock stay healthy, fat and producing on layer mash and produce well, live to be a ripe ol' age and maintain good condition, why then is it imperative that these CX have extreme high percentages of protein to "put on muscle"?

They were bred with the genetics to lay on more muscle, deeper muscle layers, than their DP counterparts but does this mean that they MUST have high pro to develop those muscles? If you have the genetics to be a tall person and you eat the same thing as your shorter brother, will you just be short like him or will you develop what your genetic code says you will? If it is adequate protein for a layer bird, it is adequate protein for a meat bird~at least that is my conclusion.

Saying that lower protein feeds will stunt the ability of the CX to develop muscle is like claiming that bantam breeds need the lowest protein to keep them smaller and then the layers need a medium protein to keep them at standard size, so the CX must need high protein to make them heavier, meatier breeds. Genetics are genetics and what food suffices to keep one bird healthy will do the same with another.

Everything I've read about these CX on this forum tells me that feeding the high pro and pushing these birds to their limits of gain seems to yield the wrong kind of product...the very same product that I see hauled out of commercial broiler houses by the tractor bucket load and thrown on the litter pile, dead as a doornail.

Horror stories about "flip", malformed and weak legs, rotten flesh on the breast bones, wing tips, etc and blisters on the breasts that have pocket abscesses underneath, heat stress that results in heart attacks...you name it, I've read it here.

Why in the world would anyone want to copy that method of raising chickens and expect that it would yield meat fit for our family's consumption? I've often wondered that. Also...why would anyone continue to do it that way after you had those results? I know many here raise them to sell and are hoping to make a profit...and they seem to do so.

By moving them once a day over the grass in small pens, they can market them as pastured poultry and get more for their efforts....but I've seen that up close and personal on Salatin's place and I got an education real quick and in a hurry about what "pastured" means to Salatin....it's a marketing gimmick and has no real value for the health or nutritional value of the meat grown there. These birds are fed continuous feeds of commercially prepared feeds and the pasture they are supposedly consuming is soiled and trampled within minutes of this crowded pen being positioned upon it. If they are getting a mouthful of the poopy grass before it is trampled by the feet and bodies of their flockmates, I'd be very surprised.


Sorry....this obsession over protein gets me going. I didn't mean to drag up the soapbox but I face this over and over with the thinking about raising CX.

Gotta do it like the big boys 'cause it took 50 years of research to learn how to get these birds fat in a short amount of time! You simply can't raise CX in any other way~by their thinking~because that's the way that everyone is doing it, so it must be right.

Poor chickens.

Poor people eating that meat later on.

Glad I have access to a better way to produce a better product and I'm glad there are some folks visiting this thread that want to try a different way also.

, beekissed. i'm so glad that there out there are better orators than me

!!!!!!!! you put on words everything i think, but i'm not able to express myself so well as you did. corn, wheat, oats, peas, sunflower seeds and fresh alfalfa is what i feed to my chickens, ducks or turkeys and was happy with the results.

 

[chicksafari]

Thanks a lot for sharing your bucket ferment method Bee! I have been fermenting my homemade feed in kefir and now that the volume has reached this point (and the chicks are outside) I am transitioning onto fermenting with kefir whey and water. Still, I am factoring in fresh kefir or whey daily and I'm very happy to find a method that is easier, cheaper and scaleable while still maintaining the nutritional/digestive benefits for my birds. It didn't occur to me to reuse/age the ferment! Thanks for enlightening me, this is a great idea!

I'm wondering if anyone has any additional insight on fermenting legumes. I have been sprouting the lentils in their mix but have been fermenting split peas with kefir along with the rest of the grains. Brandislee mentioned here that field peas should probably not be fermented in acid. Split peas have had the outer skin removed so I'm not sure whether that assumption would remain or not. I would love to feed them field peas (Austrian winter in particular) instead but haven't been able to procure a source as of yet. I have considered sprouting the whole mix with a similar bucket method or doing that possibly for the winter. Whichever way, looking to simplify things for me and maximize nutrition for my flock. It would be easiest to just drop the whole grain + legume mix into my ferment bucket and let it do it's thing. Or, if the acid medium is detrimental to the legumes I could soak the peas and lentils alongside the ferment bucket instead. Does anyone have any thoughts on incorporating legumes?

Most of you seem to mostly be fermenting lower protein grains. What about field peas? I know enough about the fermentation of grains and legumes (I, too, am a fan of Sally Fallon and Nourishing Traditions) to know that beans should not be fermented in acid like grains are because it toughens the outer shell (with the exception of black beans, I believe). I can only assume that would apply to field peas as well.

 

[Beekissed]

Why couldn't a person grind them and incorporate them in that manner...hardened shells would have no bearing then.

I would love to find a local source of non-GMO grains, particularly corn, but that seems like finding a needle in a haystack nowadays. Until I can discover better feed options past corn based feed rations, I'll rely on the excellent forage here of bugs and worms and supplement that with the other whole grains available to me. I'm growing some BOSS this year and will see how it does in the fermented mix but I wouldn't mind using field peas if I had the space in which to grow them or a natural source for them in this area.

My whole interest in this method of feeding is the increased nutrients of low cost grains, thus making it cheaper to keep and provide for chickens as a food source. So far, free ranging has never let me down for improving health of the bird. I see this fermentation as just another way of doing the same...cheaper than regular feed and healthier because of the added probiotics in the fermentation.

 

[myhubbycallsmechickeemama]

I had a person in another forum tell me that I shouldn't ferment my commercial feed, just whole grains. When I asked why this was their reply...........

Quote:
The fungi / yeast doing the fermentation may use / consume some of nutrients the formulated food (Layena in your case) is designed to supply the chickens with. If enough consumed, then chicken consuming the nutrient deficient feed will in time begin to slow in growth / productivity or develop health problems. Generally speaking the person formulating diets provide a little overage (excess) of the nutrients known to be essential but when the feed is somehow degraded (fermentation, age, excess heat) that overage may not apply.

As a general rule when using a quality layer feed cut with intact grains, I do not have the layer feed make up any less than 2/3's of the total intake, otherwise the diet can be nutrient deficient especially in respect to protein. It is usually more than 3/4's. Only exceptions to that are during cold winter months and when natural foraging makes up a significant proportion of intake.

Anyone wanna weigh in on that? It has me a little confused...if the yeast consumes the nutrients what happens to them, do they turn to something else and therefore making our feed nutrient poor?

 

[Beekissed]

http://www.pjbs.org/ijps/fin640.pdf

http://www.pjbs.org/ijps/fin1498.pdf
Quote:

Quote: Nutrients in feeds can vary considerably, and not all
nutrients in feeds are available to the animal. Therefore,
any means of increasing the digestibility or availability
of nutrients will increase the potential for
animal use and retention and reduce the amount of
nutrients excreted.

poultry and swine cannot digest some of
the nutrients

****Among ways to help swine and poultry utilize available nutrients in grain based feeds, the following was on a list of 5 ways of doing this.******

Processing—Pelleting, extrusion, steaming, micronization,
ensiling, and reducing particle size increase the
digestibility of diets for swine and poultry. Processing
feeds (e.g., grinding, pelleting, and fermenting) releases
nutrients in the diet so the animal can absorb
and retain more nutrients and excrete less nutrients
and manure volume. Processing is not as critical for
ruminants; however, coarse grinding, ensiling, and
steaming have been effective for ruminants.



Quote:


In just a few minutes on Google, one can find study after study done on the reasons why fermentation of feeds will not only increase total nutrient values but also, by changing the intestinal health, increase the total absorption of these nutrients that would otherwise be excreted in poultry.

These feeds that add extra nutrient sources so that the animals gets the basic nutritive values after the excess and unabsorbed nutrients have been excreted are just trying to supplement against the fact that their feeds are not always utilized by the animal.

Basically, it means you are paying for nutrients that are laying on the coop floor, whereas fermentation can help the nutrients become more attainable and better absorbed , resulting in those extra nutrients being retained by the animal instead of wasted in excretion. Better utilization of the feed source means less total feed consumed to get the same end result. Simple.


The friend on the other forum needs to research a little harder...it's all there at our fingertips. Big Ag is even funding the research so they can get by cheaper on feed costs, to find ways to compensate for not being able to feed antibiotics to keep the animal alive, and to promote faster growth of the animal. They have finally decided that probiotic enzymes were the way to go in the first place....who knew?

 

[xC0000005]

Beekissed, I'm certain this would make a publishable article for back yard poultry magazine. If you'd like to write one up, fine. Otherwise I might look into it.

 

[Beekissed]

Have they published articles of yours before?